Frodo or the Ring?

[HerenIstarion]

Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 313

Are you suggesting that the Ring played no part in either event despite the similarities in the statements made by Frodo, the out of character nature of Frodo's words and demeanor

Not, I am not, though I mean that those visions are possible because one who appears in those is fit for a vision - meaning he has some inner potency for that, which is strenghtened by the Ring

If I read this correctly, then I think I disagree. Are you saying that the Ring showed Frodo in each vision as he truly was

The same answer as above - not wholly was, but had inside himself the grains of such a lord. The thing that attracted me to ME in the first place, was it's reality - the are no monotype individualities, and any can show himself a fool and a king, a warrior and a coward at the same time. Frodo was a small and weak halfling, and wise and great lord at the same time and spot. Who is more intriguing than Gollum near tha end?

the orcs of the Tower had similar visions of Sam

So what? - Sam proves himself to be one of the strongest (not physically, of course) persons known in history of ME, even if he is not smart (I don't say not wise, for he is at least, half-wise . In one of his letters JRRT even names him 'jewel among hobbits'

He fits in for a role of a Tall Stern Lord as well. Gollum with the Ring shows no sign of lordliness at all.

these also happen to be the only occaisions when Sam had such visions of Frodo?

Yes, of course those are only occassions - the effect is due to the Ring, and in the tight corner, when will and emotion are involved together, though visions come about because material used is good

Add to that the fact that Gollum promptly did exactly what Frodo said would happen to him if Gollum touched him again <

That can't be presented as a proof - when fighting on the brink of an abyss, one of the fighters has all the fair chances of falling into it. Still more if speaker, one of those fighters-to-be, knows beforehand that his destination lies near above named crack. After all, Galadriel states that Frodo's sight has sharpened, so his curse/treat may be classified more as a prophecy than as a result of sudden fury and malice (or, more likely, as a result of both of those factors). The Ring playd it's part in that, of course

But it cannot be hidden from the Ring-bearer, and one who has seen the Eye

says Galadriel about Frodo, though, that implies not that any one bearing the ring rises in wisdom and foreseeing. I'm making to the point - Frodo using the Ring grew, not any other, even Bilbo, not mentioning Gollum, who, despite he was tied up with it for ages, never shown any sign of power. There really is a reason - Frodo via Bilbo was meant to be the ring-bearer, therefore he was best possible choice, one who fitted in for a task, which was indeed planned by Eru, who shows behind all scenes

And thou, Melkor, wilt discover all the secre of thy mind, and wilt perceive that they are but a part of hte whole and tributary to it's glory

which is applied to Sauron as well.

And in my turn, I don't buy in Gandlaf as a vision in Cirith Ungol. Main reason - wizard, who was always prohibiting any employement of the Ring, never, ever, even in safer situations than that on the border of Mordor, would not (even if he could, which I doubt) support such a foolish thing, even if it proved good in the long run (the goodness of the result, again, I doubt).

Episode at the parting of the fellowship, which I used as an argument, can be considered from above-postulated point of view also: Gandalf's voice (even not evidenced by no one else than Frodo to be 'voice' and not a 'vision') is desperately fighting to make Frod put the ring off, while the visions of cloaked figures and wheels of fire appear with the intention of using Ring's powers showing no signs of discomfort in a fact (which surely Gandalf would feel) of wearing/bearing (with intention to use) Enemy's greatest weapon (in fact part of the Enemy himself) so near his land

...less doth yearning trouble him who knoweth many songs, or with his hands can touch the harp - his possesion is his gift of glee which God gave him...

Edited by: HerenIstarion at: 1/10/01 3:48:37 pm