Frodo or the Ring? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

***Mister Underhill*** · 01-05-2001, 01:28 AM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 273</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Hmm. . .

Saulotus, I'm having a hard time figuring out exactly what you're contending at this point. Are you saying that Frodo tapped some Ring power as early as the Taming of Sméagol? Or that his (perhaps) inordinate mercilessness was caused by the Ring's controlling influence?

Certainly even at this early stage the Ring had begun to weigh on Frodo's mind -- as I and others have mentioned in unrelated threads, he couldn't even bring himself to toss it into the puny fire in his hearth in Bag End. On the other hand, Hobbits, and especially Bagginses, were known for being surprisingly fierce and resourceful in a pinch. Frodo was in a tight spot. He couldn't allow Gollum to keep following them; nor did he feel comfortable killing him outright, based in large part on his regard for Gandalf's wisdom. It was neccessary to psychologically bind Gollum in some way, so Frodo did what he had to do.

I still don't think that Frodo used any major Ring power at the foot of Mount Doom, either. He blusters at Gollum, but Gollum isn't really affected by it and doesn't have his will broken or bent to Frodo's wishes. Right after Frodo and Sam head up the mountain, Gollum follows. In fact, in the passage you highlighted in an earlier post, "Even so things might have gone far otherwise...(etc.)", we get the sense that if Gollum wasn't so worn down and weakened by his years of trudging around and his more recent hardships, he would have just taken the Ring right away from Frodo even in spite of his sudden fury.

How about this for a theory: I’ve always suspected that Gandalf knew more and had more of a hand in controlling far away events than he ever let on. What if it was Gandalf-power strengthening Frodo and causing Sam’s visions? The visions are certainly suggestive of Gandalf:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> In the first vision:

...a mighty lord who hid his brightness in grey cloud...

And in the second:

...a figure robed in white, but at its breast it held a wheel of fire...<hr></blockquote>The timing is right – Gandalf hadn’t yet returned as Gandalf the White at the time of the first vision. And Gandalf wore Narya – the Ring (need I remind you?) of Fire. Could it be the source of the “wheel of fire” in the vision?

Consider the other times Gandalf apparently intervened:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Then as a flash from some other point of power there came to his mind another thought: Take it off! Take it off! Fool, take it off! Take off the Ring! The two powers strove in him. For a moment, perfectly balanced between their piercing points, he writhed, tormented.

It seemed to Frodo then that he heard, quite plainly but far off, voices out of the past... [followed by Gandalf’s speech about “Many that live deserve death…”] (At the critical moment when Gollum’s fate is being decided. I know this one might be reaching, but since you quoted it yourself as seeming to come from outside of Frodo, Saul, I use it here. Frodo even answers aloud, “Very well.”, after Gandalf finishes speaking.)

...Gandalf stood amid the ruin of Isengard and strove with Saruman, delayed by treason. Yet even as he spoke his last words to Saruman, and the palantír crashed in fire upon the steps of Orthanc, his thought was ever upon Frodo and Samwise, over the long leagues his mind sought for them in hope and pity. Maybe Frodo felt it, not knowing it, as he had upon Amon Hen, even though he believed that Gandalf was gone, gone for ever into the shadow in Moria far away... (True, Gandalf apparently isn’t able to give much guidance on this occasion, but still... the wording suggests that maybe he is able after all.)<hr></blockquote>

Frodo’s words to Gollum at the foot of Mount Doom sound more like something Gandalf would say (“Begone!” he says to the Mouth of Sauron at around the same time before the Morannon) than something the Ring would say. How’s that for a theory?

Geez, I wrote a book!

</p>

01-05-2001, 01:28 AM	#11
*Mister Underhill* Dread Horseman Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Behind you! Posts: 2,744	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm Posts: 273</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> <img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Hmm. . . Saulotus, I'm having a hard time figuring out exactly what you're contending at this point. Are you saying that Frodo tapped some Ring power as early as the Taming of Sméagol? Or that his (perhaps) inordinate mercilessness was caused by the Ring's controlling influence? Certainly even at this early stage the Ring had begun to weigh on Frodo's mind -- as I and others have mentioned in unrelated threads, he couldn't even bring himself to toss it into the puny fire in his hearth in Bag End. On the other hand, Hobbits, and especially Bagginses, were known for being surprisingly fierce and resourceful in a pinch. Frodo was in a tight spot. He couldn't allow Gollum to keep following them; nor did he feel comfortable killing him outright, based in large part on his regard for Gandalf's wisdom. It was neccessary to psychologically bind Gollum in some way, so Frodo did what he had to do. I still don't think that Frodo used any major Ring power at the foot of Mount Doom, either. He blusters at Gollum, but Gollum isn't really affected by it and doesn't have his will broken or bent to Frodo's wishes. Right after Frodo and Sam head up the mountain, Gollum follows. In fact, in the passage you highlighted in an earlier post, "Even so things might have gone far otherwise...(etc.)", we get the sense that if Gollum wasn't so worn down and weakened by his years of trudging around and his more recent hardships, he would have just taken the Ring right away from Frodo even in spite of his sudden fury. How about this for a theory: I’ve always suspected that Gandalf knew more and had more of a hand in controlling far away events than he ever let on. What if it was Gandalf-power strengthening Frodo and causing Sam’s visions? The visions are certainly suggestive of Gandalf:<blockquote>*Quote:<hr> In the first vision: ...a mighty lord who hid his brightness in grey cloud... And in the second: ...a figure robed in white, but at its breast it held a wheel of fire...<hr></blockquote>The timing is right – Gandalf hadn’t yet returned as Gandalf the White at the time of the first vision. And Gandalf wore Narya – the Ring (need I remind you?) of Fire. Could it be the source of the “wheel of fire” in the vision? Consider the other times Gandalf apparently intervened:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Then as a flash from some other point of power there came to his mind another thought: Take it off! Take it off! Fool, take it off! Take off the Ring!* The two powers strove in him. For a moment, perfectly balanced between their piercing points, he writhed, tormented. It seemed to Frodo then that he heard, quite plainly but far off, voices out of the past... [followed by Gandalf’s speech about “Many that live deserve death…”] (At the critical moment when Gollum’s fate is being decided. I know this one might be reaching, but since you quoted it yourself as seeming to come from outside of Frodo, Saul, I use it here. Frodo even answers aloud, “Very well.”, after Gandalf finishes speaking.) ...Gandalf stood amid the ruin of Isengard and strove with Saruman, delayed by treason. Yet even as he spoke his last words to Saruman, and the palantír crashed in fire upon the steps of Orthanc, his thought was ever upon Frodo and Samwise, over the long leagues his mind sought for them in hope and pity. Maybe Frodo felt it, not knowing it, as he had upon Amon Hen, even though he believed that Gandalf was gone, gone for ever into the shadow in Moria far away... (True, Gandalf apparently isn’t able to give much guidance on this occasion, but still... the wording suggests that maybe he is able after all.)<hr></blockquote> Frodo’s words to Gollum at the foot of Mount Doom sound more like something Gandalf would say (“Begone!” he says to the Mouth of Sauron at around the same time before the Morannon) than something the Ring would say. How’s that for a theory? Geez, I wrote a book! </p>