Orcs... were elves?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

Another argument in favor of Orcs and Hobbits sharing a common ancestor might be the fact that Frodo and Sam were able to disguise themselves as Orcs......and get away with it .

It still doesn't make sense to me to say that Hobbits were used in the breeding of Orcs when Sauron himself seemed utterly clueless about Hobbits until he captured Gollum.

However, let's look at the issue about Frodo and Sam wearing the orc-clothes in Mordor.

Originally Posted by Alfirin

Leaving aside the fact that they Sam has little or no difficulty in Cirith Ungol finding orkish garments that will fit Frodo and himself (which seems to indicate that hobbit sized orcs are fairly common).

The orc-clothes, save the helmets, were not an especially close fit for the hobbits.

Over the tunic went a coat of stout ring-mail, short for a full-sized orc, too long for Frodo, and heavy....One [helmet] fitted Frodo well enough, a black cap with iron rim, and iron hoops covered with leather upon which the Evil Eye was painted in red above the beaklike nose-guard.

ROTK The Tower of Cirith Ungol

Sam remarks, after Frodo is fully dressed:

'A perfect little orc, if I may make so bold--at least you would be, if we could cover your face with a mask, give you longer arms, and make you bow-legged. This will hide some of the tell-tales.' He put a large black cloak around Frodo's shoulders.

ROTK The Tower of Cirith Ungol

Sam then found an orc-helmet and black cloak for himself.

Originally Posted by Alfirin

Even factoring in the fact that the Orc that drove them back into the marching column was likey in a hurry (hereafter referred to as the OS (Orc Sargeant) as I don't remember if he had a name) and the possibility that he only saw them from the back, the fact that they were not immediately recongnized as not being orcs desite the fact they aren't wearing masks (Sam I think actually says that a mask might help frodo pass for an orc I think, which seems to indicate that orcish armor does not unusally come with face plates on the helmets or cloth covers worn on the face, or it would have been a non-issue) seems to indicate that orcs and hobbits are cursorarily similar in appearance, similar enough to fool an Orcish officer (who presumaby has a degree of perception somewhat higher than the rank an file orc as otherwise he would not likey be in a position of command, or at least would not stay there.

First off, it was pretty dark when Frodo and Sam were spotted, and as Sam noted, the light of the torches carried by the column had already passed them by. They had the black cloaks on, which would have hidden a great deal, and the "beaklike nose-guard would have had some concealing effect as well.
Also, the "OS" appears to have only really seen the shields carried by the hobbits:

He took a step towards them, and even in the gloom he recognized the devices on their shields.

ROTK The Land of Shadow

That was probably the most common way an individual orc was categorized in such a regimented, militaristic society, and thus the first place the "OS" looked.

Speaking of the "OS", his position as the "motivator" doesn't speak for his having any exceptional intelligence or command ability. All he was doing was getting a group of orcs from Point A to Point B inside Mordor, not ordering them in battle.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

It still doesn't make sense to me to say that Hobbits were used in the breeding of Orcs when Sauron himself seemed utterly clueless about Hobbits until he captured Gollum.

They could have interbred without Sauron knowing. If they had a command "Breed", they'd breed with whomever they see first. If the mate is a bit short for a reglar (wo)man, it's just too bad.

Maybe orcs that spent most of their time near hobbit settlements (like Gladden Fields) became shorter overtime, whereas those near Rohan (for example) would have been quite tall.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

First off, it was pretty dark when Frodo and Sam were spotted, and as Sam noted, the light of the torches carried by the column had already passed them by. They had the black cloaks on, which would have hidden a great deal, and the "beaklike nose-guard would have had some concealing effect as well.
Also, the "OS" appears to have only really seen the shields carried by the hobbits:

okay my main point was really only that, if the average orc was as some had suggested only slightly shorter than a man, than the whole trick would have been impossible. The hobbits could not have MOVED in orchish clothing so oversized. Frodo of course has basically a full orc kit (since most to all of his own clothes were in the bundle the Cirith Ungol Orc had manged to get out of the tower and were currently headed to Barad-dur) but even sam would have had trouble since the cloak would drag on the ground so badly he'd be constantly tripping. An no matter how dark it was the OS would have presumably noticed that the orcs he was looking at were several feet too short for warrior orcs. (and if one belives in the "battle orcs are bigger than snaga theory" he'd likey be suspicios of two snaga who were out playing with the big boys (even if the orc legions took snaga with them, as camp retainers, they probably wouldn't be permitted to go out in full armor, that would be a privalage reserved for "true" orcs)

That was probably the most common way an individual orc was categorized in such a regimented, militaristic society, and thus the first place the "OS" looked.

Speaking of the "OS", his position as the "motivator" doesn't speak for his having any exceptional intelligence or command ability. All he was doing was getting a group of orcs from Point A to Point B inside Mordor, not ordering them in battle. [/QUOTE]

but if the shield was they way they were reconized it still means that the OS would have had to recognize the shield as being one he had seen before so at bare minimum Frodo and sam would have had to be roughly the same build as the orcs whose shields they were using (unless a shield (or its individual emblems)marks a tribe, not an individual).
As for command ability, at minimum the OS would have had to have some ability. If Orc society was so fractious that desertion was such a real problem (and the fact that this is his first thought when he sees frodo and sam rather than two orcs who are too weak to cut it and in need of being converted into corpses/battle rations (orcs are cannibalistic right?) mean he needs the ability to be able to confidently coerce wayward orcs back into line, and enough respect from the rank and file they don't turn en masse and fragg him. (unless whoever formed the patrol simply picked his biggest, nastiest, most brutal orc as OS on the grounds that he had enough power to keep everyone else in line.) and it's a pretty big bunch of orcs, the OS couln't survive the march if he had to watch his back around all of them.

[Inziladun]

Just to stir this old pot again, let's add the Drúedain to the possible source of Orc-stock.

The UT essay regarding them makes a point of saying they and the Orcs had a particularly adversarial relationship. Though, to be fair, the same has been noted between the Orcs, and the Elves and Dwarves too.

However, there's an interesting footnote (# 5) which says that "Orcs and Drûgs each regarded the other as renegades." The two certainly never helped one another or lived together, so a relationship seems to be the best explanation for their mutual feelings.

Now, the same footnote makes a point of saying the Elves themselves did not believe in the relationship because "their laughter and the laughter or Orcs are as different as is the light of Aman from the darkness of Angband." That would seem to be a rather shaky basis on which to dismiss the theory though, since it seems obvious that the Drúedain, like any other potential sources from which Morgoth could have bred Orcs, could easily have been so altered after he got through that they were in effect different creatures.

The Drúedain were said to be short, some as small as four feet, so they could account for the smaller breeds, maybe. And perhaps the "tracker" orc encountered by Frodo and Sam inside Mordor would have had Drûg blood? Ghân-buri-Ghân himself was able to scent a change in the wind.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Hey, Zil, that's not a bad idea at all, and interesting one. For sure, Orcs existed before Men even appeared, but of course "continuous breeding" is more than possible. I have just one remark:

Originally Posted by Inziladun

The Drúedain were said to be short, some as small as four feet, so they could account for the smaller breeds, maybe. And perhaps the "tracker" orc encountered by Frodo and Sam inside Mordor would have had Drûg blood? Ghân-buri-Ghân himself was able to scent a change in the wind.

I think, maybe, that where I like the idea, I don't think there's a need for linking especially the "little snuffler"-type of Orc with the Drûg. After all, the Orcs were probably so much interbred after all the centuries that it was a diverse mixture of everything that ever came out of Utumno. That's not to say that the Orcs' sense of smell might not be a relic from their Drûg ancestry (because after all, Elves or Men normally don't have such a great and prominent sense of smell. Unless it is some derivation of Elvish generally keen senses?). But I wouldn't link both the small size and the smell with Drûg ancestry of this particular kind of Orc. After all, there have been millenia in between...

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Now, the same footnote makes a point of saying the Elves themselves did not believe in the relationship because "their laughter and the laughter or Orcs are as different as is the light of Aman from the darkness of Angband." That would seem to be a rather shaky basis on which to dismiss the theory though, since it seems obvious that the Drúedain, like any other potential sources from which Morgoth could have bred Orcs, could easily have been so altered after he got through that they were in effect different creatures.

I think this is a notable description. Internally Tolkien wasn't necesarily going to have anything known for certain about the origin of orcs, but from an external perspective he delves into possible candidates: Elves, Men, beasts, Maiar... never the Drúedain or 'early Hobbits' however. And then (internally again) he has the Elves negate an idea regarding the Drúedain because of... laughter! the light of Aman versus the darkness of Angband. I know it seems strange, but something about this particular 'tell' makes me (at least) think it's more likely to be true.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

For sure, Orcs existed before Men even appeared, but of course "continuous breeding" is more than possible.

But we should note that Tolkien was quite aware that the chronology needed changing for his Orcs from Men/Maiar idea to make sense, and he intended to make adjustments. The more well known sequence of events hails from the 1977 Silmarillion, and since Christopher Tolkien wasn't going to try and incorporate the later sketched out chronology, the opinion of the Wise of Eressea was the natural enough decision for his published Silmarillion -- admittedly giving weight to the idea that Orcs began with corrupted Elves, even though the absolute 'truth' simply was not known.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I don't think there's a need for linking especially the "little snuffler"-type of Orc with the Drûg. After all, the Orcs were probably so much interbred after all the centuries that it was a diverse mixture of everything that ever came out of Utumno. That's not to say that the Orcs' sense of smell might not be a relic from their Drûg ancestry (because after all, Elves or Men normally don't have such a great and prominent sense of smell. Unless it is some derivation of Elvish generally keen senses?). But I wouldn't link both the small size and the smell with Drûg ancestry of this particular kind of Orc. After all, there have been millenia in between...

For sure, by the time of Frodo and Sam's foray into Mordor there had been enough time for very many bits and pieces of different races to manifest themselves in various ways in Orcish behaviour and appearance.

Originally Posted by Galin

On the external side, Tolkien delves into possible candidates: Elves, Men, beasts, Maiar... never Drugs or 'early Hobbits' however; and then here, he has the Elves negate an idea because of... laughter! to me this speaks to a deeper perception, a factor that some Men might not even notice -- thus (in my opinion) giving it a greater ring of truth.

In other words, that laughter would seem a somewhat dubious 'tell' makes it all the more likely to my mind, especially with the description chosen to separate them -- the light of Aman versus the darkness of Angband. To me this seems very Elvish and on a level perhaps beyond that of mortals, again, making me (at least) think it more likely to be true.

The Elves certainly were capable of making accurate perceptions in such matters. However, the same footnote quoted above remarks of the Elves' dismissal of the notion, that

.....some thought, nonetheless, that there had been a remote kinship, which accounted for the special enmity.

So, perhaps the Elves were not in total agreement anyway.

That footnote ends with a wry quote from ROTK:

At that old Ghân made a curious gurgling noise, and it seemed that he was laughing.

Was "the light of Aman" really comparable to the sound a flushing toilet?

[Kuruharan]

This all means that the elves were willing to accept the idea that orcs were taken from their own stock because the laughter of elves and orcs were somehow similar..?

I think the development of orcs went through several stages. The first was corrupted animals and some of these bodies were inhabited by fallen ainur. Then elvish strains were added in followed by mannish they came along.

The renegade quote is very interesting as perhaps the Drûgs retained a clearer cultural memory of what happened to some of their members in their earliest days? Being the crafty woodsmen that they were perhaps they followed as some of their kinsmen were dragged off and observed what happened to them afterwards.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Was "the light of Aman" really comparable to the sound a flushing toilet?

And here I had always thought of it as being more like the flowing of a babbling brook...