Orcs... were elves?

[Galin]

It's possible that some Orcs diminished simply due to 'unchecked' breeding, smaller surviving orcs breeding or something.

Concerning Hobbits, for myself I imagine they 'awoke' as Hobbits, not that they became smaller through time to become 'halflings' in the first place. Is there anything that doesn't allow my opinion here concerning Hobbits? I don't recall anything at the moment, at least.

[Animalmother]

Given Melkor/Morgoth's evil proclivity as a sub-creator, the polygenesis hypothesis of orc origins makes most sense. He enjoyed twisting and ruining beings, so why would he limit himself to elves as his founding stock for orcs, when mankind (and perhaps proto-hobbit kind) were also available?

Polygenesis would explain some of the anomalies in the LOTR text. If orcs were of two original stocks, one immortal and the other mortal, orc society would have an orc-aristocracy with a proportionally greater share of elven ancestry, which would confer on the orc-aristocrats greater height, greater longevity, and greater knowledge of ancient orc lore and of the will of their dark masters. The great mass of orcs (snaga) would be twisted versions of mankind, would be shorter and shorter-lived, and would not be the carriers of high (low?) orc-culture. This parallels the caste differences between Numenoreans and other Men.

Shagrat and Gorbag (who remembered a "Great Siege" which could have been the siege of Minas Ithil 1000 years earlier) were likely aristo-orcs, and therefore would naturally be in positions of command. The father-son dynasty of Misty Mountain orc-kings which was so long-lived (Azog/Bolg if I remember right) would also be aristo-orcs. The Great Goblin of THE HOBBIT would be one too. The great mass of common orcs would be of longevity no greater than mankind's.

Orc fertility is another question. Elves would naturally have low fertility, which is unsuitable for a warrior species. Melkor/Morgoth's mutation of women into orc-women would include modifying normal human reproduction so that the orc women frequently produced twins, triplets, and quadruplets. This would explain how the orc population recovered quickly after crushing defeats. It would also explain, to some extent, the small stature of common orcs, as multiple fetuses competing for limited pre-natal nutrition tend to be less large and healthy than single fetuses.

Did orcs have free will? I think the answer, given their origins and actual behavior, must be yes. Their innate urges to be cruel and warlike were stronger than mankind's, and were reinforced by a culture of darkness, but they had free wills and could imagine having different lives, as could Gollum. Was the universal elf/human/dwarf policy of orc-extermination unjustifiable? That's too tough an ethical question for me.

[Alfirin]

Another argument in favor of Orcs and Hobbits sharing a common ancestor might be the fact that Frodo and Sam were able to disguise themselves as Orcs......and get away with it . Leaving aside the fact that they Sam has little or no difficulty in Cirith Ungol finding orkish garments that will fit Frodo and himself (which seems to indicate that hobbit sized orcs are fairly common). The addion of those clothes is enough to let them pass for orcs well enough to fool other orcs cursory examination, up fairly close. Even factoring in the fact that the Orc that drove them back into the marching column was likey in a hurry (hereafter referred to as the OS (Orc Sargeant) as I don't remember if he had a name) and the possibility that he only saw them from the back, the fact that they were not immediately recongnized as not being orcs desite the fact they aren't wearing masks (Sam I think actually says that a mask might help frodo pass for an orc I think, which seems to indicate that orcish armor does not unusally come with face plates on the helmets or cloth covers worn on the face, or it would have been a non-issue) seems to indicate that orcs and hobbits are cursorarily similar in appearance, similar enough to fool an Orcish officer (who presumaby has a degree of perception somewhat higher than the rank an file orc as otherwise he would not likey be in a position of command, or at least would not stay there.)

As for the questiuon posed earlier with regards to Orcish lifespan, that's a little hard to determine, since the real measure would require something that the other races of ME likey would never see, a non-slave non-combat orc, and orc with a life of ease and peace and who dies of old age. Orc might in fact have very long natural lifespans, but because of their extremely agressive and violent natures, few if any get to the end of thier actual lifespan. Think of it like, say a parrot which lives maybe 5-6 years on average in the wild, but in captivity can live almost as long as a person.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

Orc might in fact have very long natural lifespans, but because of their extremely agressive and violent natures, few if any get to the end of thier actual lifespan. Think of it like, say a parrot which lives maybe 5-6 years on average in the wild, but in captivity can live almost as long as a person.

Saruman: 'Ello, I wish to register a complaint.

(The Dark Lord does not respond.)

Saruman: 'Ello, Miss?

Sauron: What do you mean "miss"?

Saruman: I'm sorry, I have a cold. I wish to make a complaint!

Sauron: We're closin' for the season. It's invasion time, you know.

Saruman: Never mind that, my lord. I wish to complain about this Orc what I purchased not half an hour ago in Mordor.

Sauron: Oh yes, the, uh, the Khandian Blue Uruk...What's, uh...What's wrong with it?

Saruman: I'll tell you what's wrong with it, my lord. 'E's dead, that's what's wrong with it!

Sauron: No, no, 'e's uh...he's resting.

Saruman: Look, matey, I know a dead Orc when I see one, and I'm looking at one right now.

Sauron: No, no -- he's not dead, he's...he's restin'! Remarkable Orc, the Khandian Blue Uruk, idn'it, ay? Very large and muscular!

Saruman: The muscles don't enter into it. It's stone dead.

Sauron: No-no-no-no, no, no! 'E's resting!

Saruman: All right then, if he's restin', I'll wake him up! (shouting at the cage) 'Ello, Mister Lurtz! I've got some lovely fresh man flesh for you if you show...

(the Dark Lord hits the cage)

Sauron: There, he moved!

Saruman: No, he didn't, that was you hitting the cage!

Sauron: I never! I am the Dark Lord, I don't need to resort to no cheap parlor tricks!

Ummm...sorry, too much coffee this morning. I just saw Orcs in relation to parrots in the wild...and...well, I'm overly caffeinated.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Saruman: 'Ello, I wish to register a complaint.

(The Dark Lord does not respond.)

Saruman: 'Ello, Miss?

Sauron: What do you mean "miss"?

Saruman: I'm sorry, I have a cold. I wish to make a complaint!

Sauron: We're closin' for the season. It's invasion time, you know.

Saruman: Never mind that, my lord. I wish to complain about this Orc what I purchased not half an hour ago in Mordor.

Sauron: Oh yes, the, uh, the Khandian Blue Uruk...What's, uh...What's wrong with it?

Saruman: I'll tell you what's wrong with it, my lord. 'E's dead, that's what's wrong with it!

Sauron: No, no, 'e's uh...he's resting.

Saruman: Look, matey, I know a dead Orc when I see one, and I'm looking at one right now.

Sauron: No, no -- he's not dead, he's...he's restin'! Remarkable Orc, the Khandian Blue Uruk, idn'it, ay? Very large and muscular!

Saruman: The muscles don't enter into it. It's stone dead.

Sauron: No-no-no-no, no, no! 'E's resting!

Saruman: All right then, if he's restin', I'll wake him up! (shouting at the cage) 'Ello, Mister Lurtz! I've got some lovely fresh man flesh for you if you show...

(the Dark Lord hits the cage)

Sauron: There, he moved!

Saruman: No, he didn't, that was you hitting the cage!

Sauron: I never! I am the Dark Lord, I don't need to resort to no cheap parlor tricks!

Ummm...sorry, too much coffee this morning. I just saw Orcs in relation to parrots in the wild...and...well, I'm overly caffeinated.

and I suppose he'll next claim the Orc is "Pinin' for the Misty Mountains"

Hmm maybe I shoud have used a beta (aka Siamese fighting fish) as my example. I also remebered last night there's a sort of marsupial mouse whose lifespan increases about tenfold if it remains chaste (once it gets ready to mate, it's testosterone level gets so high it poisons it.)

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

Another argument in favor of Orcs and Hobbits sharing a common ancestor might be the fact that Frodo and Sam were able to disguise themselves as Orcs......and get away with it .

It still doesn't make sense to me to say that Hobbits were used in the breeding of Orcs when Sauron himself seemed utterly clueless about Hobbits until he captured Gollum.

However, let's look at the issue about Frodo and Sam wearing the orc-clothes in Mordor.

Originally Posted by Alfirin

Leaving aside the fact that they Sam has little or no difficulty in Cirith Ungol finding orkish garments that will fit Frodo and himself (which seems to indicate that hobbit sized orcs are fairly common).

The orc-clothes, save the helmets, were not an especially close fit for the hobbits.

Over the tunic went a coat of stout ring-mail, short for a full-sized orc, too long for Frodo, and heavy....One [helmet] fitted Frodo well enough, a black cap with iron rim, and iron hoops covered with leather upon which the Evil Eye was painted in red above the beaklike nose-guard.

ROTK The Tower of Cirith Ungol

Sam remarks, after Frodo is fully dressed:

'A perfect little orc, if I may make so bold--at least you would be, if we could cover your face with a mask, give you longer arms, and make you bow-legged. This will hide some of the tell-tales.' He put a large black cloak around Frodo's shoulders.

ROTK The Tower of Cirith Ungol

Sam then found an orc-helmet and black cloak for himself.

Originally Posted by Alfirin

Even factoring in the fact that the Orc that drove them back into the marching column was likey in a hurry (hereafter referred to as the OS (Orc Sargeant) as I don't remember if he had a name) and the possibility that he only saw them from the back, the fact that they were not immediately recongnized as not being orcs desite the fact they aren't wearing masks (Sam I think actually says that a mask might help frodo pass for an orc I think, which seems to indicate that orcish armor does not unusally come with face plates on the helmets or cloth covers worn on the face, or it would have been a non-issue) seems to indicate that orcs and hobbits are cursorarily similar in appearance, similar enough to fool an Orcish officer (who presumaby has a degree of perception somewhat higher than the rank an file orc as otherwise he would not likey be in a position of command, or at least would not stay there.

First off, it was pretty dark when Frodo and Sam were spotted, and as Sam noted, the light of the torches carried by the column had already passed them by. They had the black cloaks on, which would have hidden a great deal, and the "beaklike nose-guard would have had some concealing effect as well.
Also, the "OS" appears to have only really seen the shields carried by the hobbits:

He took a step towards them, and even in the gloom he recognized the devices on their shields.

ROTK The Land of Shadow

That was probably the most common way an individual orc was categorized in such a regimented, militaristic society, and thus the first place the "OS" looked.

Speaking of the "OS", his position as the "motivator" doesn't speak for his having any exceptional intelligence or command ability. All he was doing was getting a group of orcs from Point A to Point B inside Mordor, not ordering them in battle.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

It still doesn't make sense to me to say that Hobbits were used in the breeding of Orcs when Sauron himself seemed utterly clueless about Hobbits until he captured Gollum.

They could have interbred without Sauron knowing. If they had a command "Breed", they'd breed with whomever they see first. If the mate is a bit short for a reglar (wo)man, it's just too bad.

Maybe orcs that spent most of their time near hobbit settlements (like Gladden Fields) became shorter overtime, whereas those near Rohan (for example) would have been quite tall.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

First off, it was pretty dark when Frodo and Sam were spotted, and as Sam noted, the light of the torches carried by the column had already passed them by. They had the black cloaks on, which would have hidden a great deal, and the "beaklike nose-guard would have had some concealing effect as well.
Also, the "OS" appears to have only really seen the shields carried by the hobbits:

okay my main point was really only that, if the average orc was as some had suggested only slightly shorter than a man, than the whole trick would have been impossible. The hobbits could not have MOVED in orchish clothing so oversized. Frodo of course has basically a full orc kit (since most to all of his own clothes were in the bundle the Cirith Ungol Orc had manged to get out of the tower and were currently headed to Barad-dur) but even sam would have had trouble since the cloak would drag on the ground so badly he'd be constantly tripping. An no matter how dark it was the OS would have presumably noticed that the orcs he was looking at were several feet too short for warrior orcs. (and if one belives in the "battle orcs are bigger than snaga theory" he'd likey be suspicios of two snaga who were out playing with the big boys (even if the orc legions took snaga with them, as camp retainers, they probably wouldn't be permitted to go out in full armor, that would be a privalage reserved for "true" orcs)

That was probably the most common way an individual orc was categorized in such a regimented, militaristic society, and thus the first place the "OS" looked.

Speaking of the "OS", his position as the "motivator" doesn't speak for his having any exceptional intelligence or command ability. All he was doing was getting a group of orcs from Point A to Point B inside Mordor, not ordering them in battle. [/QUOTE]

but if the shield was they way they were reconized it still means that the OS would have had to recognize the shield as being one he had seen before so at bare minimum Frodo and sam would have had to be roughly the same build as the orcs whose shields they were using (unless a shield (or its individual emblems)marks a tribe, not an individual).
As for command ability, at minimum the OS would have had to have some ability. If Orc society was so fractious that desertion was such a real problem (and the fact that this is his first thought when he sees frodo and sam rather than two orcs who are too weak to cut it and in need of being converted into corpses/battle rations (orcs are cannibalistic right?) mean he needs the ability to be able to confidently coerce wayward orcs back into line, and enough respect from the rank and file they don't turn en masse and fragg him. (unless whoever formed the patrol simply picked his biggest, nastiest, most brutal orc as OS on the grounds that he had enough power to keep everyone else in line.) and it's a pretty big bunch of orcs, the OS couln't survive the march if he had to watch his back around all of them.

[Inziladun]

Just to stir this old pot again, let's add the Drúedain to the possible source of Orc-stock.

The UT essay regarding them makes a point of saying they and the Orcs had a particularly adversarial relationship. Though, to be fair, the same has been noted between the Orcs, and the Elves and Dwarves too.

However, there's an interesting footnote (# 5) which says that "Orcs and Drûgs each regarded the other as renegades." The two certainly never helped one another or lived together, so a relationship seems to be the best explanation for their mutual feelings.

Now, the same footnote makes a point of saying the Elves themselves did not believe in the relationship because "their laughter and the laughter or Orcs are as different as is the light of Aman from the darkness of Angband." That would seem to be a rather shaky basis on which to dismiss the theory though, since it seems obvious that the Drúedain, like any other potential sources from which Morgoth could have bred Orcs, could easily have been so altered after he got through that they were in effect different creatures.

The Drúedain were said to be short, some as small as four feet, so they could account for the smaller breeds, maybe. And perhaps the "tracker" orc encountered by Frodo and Sam inside Mordor would have had Drûg blood? Ghân-buri-Ghân himself was able to scent a change in the wind.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Hey, Zil, that's not a bad idea at all, and interesting one. For sure, Orcs existed before Men even appeared, but of course "continuous breeding" is more than possible. I have just one remark:

Originally Posted by Inziladun

The Drúedain were said to be short, some as small as four feet, so they could account for the smaller breeds, maybe. And perhaps the "tracker" orc encountered by Frodo and Sam inside Mordor would have had Drûg blood? Ghân-buri-Ghân himself was able to scent a change in the wind.

I think, maybe, that where I like the idea, I don't think there's a need for linking especially the "little snuffler"-type of Orc with the Drûg. After all, the Orcs were probably so much interbred after all the centuries that it was a diverse mixture of everything that ever came out of Utumno. That's not to say that the Orcs' sense of smell might not be a relic from their Drûg ancestry (because after all, Elves or Men normally don't have such a great and prominent sense of smell. Unless it is some derivation of Elvish generally keen senses?). But I wouldn't link both the small size and the smell with Drûg ancestry of this particular kind of Orc. After all, there have been millenia in between...

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Now, the same footnote makes a point of saying the Elves themselves did not believe in the relationship because "their laughter and the laughter or Orcs are as different as is the light of Aman from the darkness of Angband." That would seem to be a rather shaky basis on which to dismiss the theory though, since it seems obvious that the Drúedain, like any other potential sources from which Morgoth could have bred Orcs, could easily have been so altered after he got through that they were in effect different creatures.

I think this is a notable description. Internally Tolkien wasn't necesarily going to have anything known for certain about the origin of orcs, but from an external perspective he delves into possible candidates: Elves, Men, beasts, Maiar... never the Drúedain or 'early Hobbits' however. And then (internally again) he has the Elves negate an idea regarding the Drúedain because of... laughter! the light of Aman versus the darkness of Angband. I know it seems strange, but something about this particular 'tell' makes me (at least) think it's more likely to be true.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

For sure, Orcs existed before Men even appeared, but of course "continuous breeding" is more than possible.

But we should note that Tolkien was quite aware that the chronology needed changing for his Orcs from Men/Maiar idea to make sense, and he intended to make adjustments. The more well known sequence of events hails from the 1977 Silmarillion, and since Christopher Tolkien wasn't going to try and incorporate the later sketched out chronology, the opinion of the Wise of Eressea was the natural enough decision for his published Silmarillion -- admittedly giving weight to the idea that Orcs began with corrupted Elves, even though the absolute 'truth' simply was not known.