Orcs... were elves?

[Mänwe]

Raynor;

Originally quoted by Raynor;

"from 3980 normal years to a "meager" 702 normal years] is quite significant."

Then to be pedantic they were still the "Firstborn". No?

As for the Orkor, you are right, they are a possibility. Well spotted indeed, I found a quote I believe supports the fact that they were Elves, that they were Avari.

"It was indeed their obvious detestation of the Orcs, and their willingness to
assist in any war against them, that convinced the Eldar that the Dwarves were no creatures of Morgoth. Nonetheless the Dwarvish name for Orcs, Rukhs, pl. Rakhas, seems to show affinity to the Elvish names, and was possibly ultimately derived from Avarin." - (HoME XI) [My Bold]

As for your quote from the Atrabeth, it does not ring any bells within my mind. I am afraid that the interim length has completely scrambled my brain and I cannot remember even reading the quote I thought I remembered!

In conclusion the dates we assign for the birth of Elves and Men allows I think sufficient time for their corruption and cross-breeding to form orcs. Although the short glimpse we have of the Avari does unsettle things somewhat.

I would also throw into the ring the following question.

What do we mean by the word "orc"?

For there were lesser breeds known as "snaga", "orcs" are reffered to as the more disciplined breeds from Mordor and given the name of "uruk" by Sauron.

"The word uruk that occurs in the Black Speech, devised (it is said) by Sauron to serve as a lingua franca for his subjects, was probably borrowed by him from the Elvish tongues of earlier times. It referred, however, specially to the trained and disciplined Orcs of the regiments of Mordor. Lesser breeds seem to have been called snaga." - (HoME XI)

Perhaps these more disciplined ones we can associate more with corrupted Elves.

"'There are Orcs, very many of them,' he said. `And some are large and evil: black Uruks of Mordor." - (Book II, Chapter 5 The Bridge of Khazad-dûm)

There is a clear distinction here between "orc" and "uruk". However there is a clear similarity between them, for "some are large and evil" there are but a few differences in appearance yet they are given another name.

Let us not forget also that Saruman also bred these, they did not just originate from Mordor.

So I ask you, can we actually sign a race that has been corrupted to an "orc" or an "uruk" or a "snaga"?