Orcs... were elves?

[leapofberen]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I'm leaning toward the idea that "specialist" Orc-breeds might have been partly derived from the blood of Men, but I'm nearly positive Elves were the foundation of the "basic" Orc.

I think this hits the nail on the head...it is likely that interbreeding continued in the depths of Angband as long as Melkor continued in power. I don't have the Sil immediately available, but when Beren and Luthien stood before Morgoth, it is said (paraphrase here) that the darkest of thoughts yet entered Morgoth's mind, presumably concerning Luthien and what he could do with the daughter of a Maia and an Elf. Whether that means offspring or interbreeding, I can only imagine.

Initially though, it seems to me that the things that Melkor did were largely out of jealousy, hurt, pain, bitterness, etc, which implies that he originally tortured and interbred Elves not simply to raise up a corrupt army...but at the root, to cause pain to Eru, the rest of the Vala, etc.

As far as hobbits and Men being involved, I suppose it is possible. It occurs to me the Uruk were such. It seems that Morgoth was initially (mostly) hateful of the Elves because of the attention that was paid to them by the Vala (I might be a little off on that one, but that seems right at the moment). It seems Men were something of a sidenote, much as the Hobbits were in the Third Age. And when Men initially "awoke" the Dark Lord came to them to deceive them but I remember reading that he had to leave and left the business of deceiving Men to a "lesser being," and eventually Men came West at the rumour of a great Light which lived in the farthest West, which was a big mistake for Morgoth, yet it also implies he took Men for granted.

That Men or Hobbits were involved seems not only very possible, but not as grievous/important if the Elves were the ones who were first tortured and interbred; not because of who they were necessarily, but because of REASON why Melkor did it in the first place...in a fit of rage, vengeance, etc, which the Sil says "was most hurtful to Eru."

As far as Men go, didn't he fear Men the most? Yet it seems to me he also took them for granted. And is the fear simply not a foreshadowing of the fact that it would eventually be through the weakness of mortals (Men, Hobbits) that evil would be defeated and not through the might and beauty of the Firstborn? Yet the Firstborn were the ones who saw the Light of the West, were more like the Vala in life and appearance then Men, and were the favored of the Vala as well, so I seem to think it is more reasonable that Morgoth would want to corrupt them rather then Men as Morgoth was ever moved by the basest of motives (fear, hatred, insecurity, etc.)