Orcs... were elves?

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

I also like the idea that Orcs are bred from several races, as it does allow for the many varieties. But if they were descended from Elves it also makes for a lot of interesting possibilities - e.g. could the Elvish nature be entirely taken form them? Were they immortal? What happened when they died? etc.

Only Orks with pureblooded Elven ancestry (tormented by Morgoth or no) would be immortal. Tolkien stated, with regards to Half-Elves, that they were inherently mortal, sharing the Gift of Men. Only those to whom the Choice was given: Eärendil, Elwing, Elrond, and Elros had a choice. The default setting was mortality, and so Dior, Elured, and Elurin died indeed and are gone beyond the circles of the World. It can also be taken as an explanation for why the Elven-choosing next generation of the family: Elladan, Elrohir, and Arwen, were given a Choice, whereas the Sons of Elros were stuck with their father's lot.

It therefore follows that part-Elf Orks would not have been Immortal. They would likely have inherited many other Elvish traits and there would certainly have been great enmity between Elf and Ork, but unless an Ork was of pure "Elvish" ancestry, he (or she) would not have been immortal within the circles of the world.

[Boromir88]

Only Orks with pureblooded Elven ancestry (tormented by Morgoth or no) would be immortal.~Formendacil

But the question is were there ever any "pure-blooded" through and through Elf corrupted into an Orc. We are told this from Home X, but it goes along with the "Man Origin."

They could be slain, and they were subject to disease; but apart from these ills they were not immortal, even according to the manner of the Quendi; indeed they appear to have been by nature short-lived compared with the span of Men of higher race, such as the Edain

Again this applies more directly to the Mannish Origin, but it is (as far as I know) the only quote that talks about Orc life-span. Also notice that even the Elves believe Orcs were not immortal.

[Raynor]

It must be pointed out that Myths Transformed, to which you reffered repeatedly, contradicts _a lot_ of the whole of Tolkien's literature, so that I would refrain from giving it more weight when it comes to contradicting other texts. In another thread, I made several comments on it too.

There are some serious obstacles in accepting the version of the Sun and Moon as given in Myths Transformed. The opening salvo is: "At that point (in reconsideration of the early cosmogonic parts) I was inclined to adhere to the Flat Earth and the astronomically absurd business of the making of the Sun and Moon."

As Tolkien himself recounts, a minor loss would that of dramatic impact (no first incarnates walking in a starlit world, no unfolding of the elven banners at the first rising of the moon). More serious that this is the fact that the cosmological myth of the Silmarillion comes out as a "creative error". Moreover, in Christopher's words:

"As he stated it, this may seem to be an argument of the most doubtful nature, raising indeed the question, why is the myth of the Two Trees [as being created from the sun, not the other way around] (which so far as record goes he never showed any intention to abandon) more acceptable than that of the creation of the Sun and the Moon from the last fruit and flower of the Trees as they died? Or indeed, if this is true, how can it be acceptable that the Evening Star is the Silmaril cut by Beren from Morgoth's crown?"

The problem that seems to be at hand is that Tolkien considered the Sil. to be too "primitive" in nature; primitive, but not _absurd_. The here discarded myth cannot be excised as a "gratuitous element", since it is closely related to the two trees giving light to Valinor, while ME was in darkness - and it is in darkness that the elves had to wake, under the light of the stars (not of the sun).

Moreover, Tolkien concludes that Men should awake during the Great March - now this doesn't leave _that_ much weight to the stature of the elves as firstborn, does it?

Before the making of Utumno (and the waking of the elves) Melkor ravishes Arien - and it is thus burned and "his brightness darkened" - how then could he appear in fair form to the Men he would later corrupt? [Another problematic idea presented in M.T. is that Fionwe was son of Manwe, which is pretty much against my understaing of his Legendarium.]

To conclude with Christopher's words concerning this particular theory of Sun and Moon: "It seems to me that he was devising – from within it – a fearful weapon against his own creation".

And what about the rejected flat-earth theory? No walls of the night & co? Why would the elves call Men children of the sun if the sun was there from the begining? On the whole, I would go with the "mixed origin", since it is the least contradicting one.

[Boromir88]

Manwe, interesting post, there's one little thing though:

or deny the trustworthiness of Treebeard’s memory.~Manwe

That itself is not a difficult thing to do. You pointed out Letter 153, and this Letter specifically points out when Treebeard talks about Trolls being a mockery of Ents.

Also, notice in the quote Treebeard says nothing about Orcs originating from Elves. The line is "in mockery of Ents, as Orcs were of Elves", which says nothing about Orcs originating from Elves, just they were made in mockery of the Elves.

You point out using Treebeard's "great memory," but I don't see how that holds any grounds. Treebeard can remember events from long ago but as Tolkien specifically points out with him there is a lot he didn't understand. When Treebeard talks about Trolls being mockery of Ents as Orcs are to Elves, this has nothing to do with his memory it's what he thinks about Trolls to Ents and Orcs to Elves. And Tolkien specifically talks about Treebeard to show that what his characters say is not always what he feels or what is "correct."

There is a time problem, but Tolkien clearly felt like the Mannish Origin is the most likely and he altered the chronology to try to best fit this theory. When it comes all down to it, it's just what you want to believe. Tolkien liked the Mannish Origin the best, but that doesn't mean the reader has to.

[Mänwe]

Raynor

Moreover, Tolkien concludes that Men should awake during the Great March - now this doesn't leave _that_ much weight to the stature of the elves as firstborn, does it?

But the Elves were the Firstborn, Men were known as the 'Followers', the term for me makes them the 'siblings' if you will. Yes Tolkien changes the chronology to give the Mannish origins more weight, but it is nonetheless one of the many theories. However I do not see how this could mean that the Elves were anything less than the "Firstborn".

There is also a quote I remember reading that states something about Melkor appearing in fair form to Men. I shall try to find it...

I am inclined also to the 'mixed' origins, more plausible. My post if anything was to give a taste for the various themes that could be meddled with.

Boromir88 I see your point about Treebeard, but I don’t think that I’m using Treebeard’s wods as you think I am. I’m not even considering what he said about the connection of Elves and Orcs and whether they were made/created, counterfiets, etc. I’m solely using his statements on when Orcs appeared, those being:

"made by the Enemy in the Great Darkness" and "It is a mark of evil things that came in the Great Darkness that they cannot abide the Sun; but Saruman’s Orcs can endure it, even if they hate it".

Treebeard is talking about Orcs, especially in the second, and according ot his knowledge, Orcs first appeared during a Great Darkness. I interpret this Great Darkness to be the time before Melkor was captured; it could of course refer to the time when Melkor had just returned, that’s something I should think about.

But anyway, all that I need from Treebeard is that his memory on when Orcs appeared is stable, and Tolkien says he has a good memory. His understanding of what happened may not be top-notch (and hence he’s wrong), but I’m not convinced that his memory of when the Orcs appeared is not to be trusted. I think that the Letter is not suggesting that Treebeard is completely untrustworthy in the situation, only that his speculations on how, not when, Orcs were made is wrong.

[Letty]

Yes,orcs were once elves.
Saruman explained that to Lurtz in The Fellowship of the ring.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Mänwë

However I do not see how this could mean that the Elves were anything less than the "Firstborn".

In my opinion, the shortening of the period [between the awakening of elves (1050 Valarian year, cf. the Grey Annals, HoME XI) and the awakening of Men (1500 Valarian Year) from 3980 normal years to a "meager" 702 normal years] is quite significant.

Another possible source for orcs is found in the Grey Annals too:

Originally Posted by Valarian Year 1330

Among these were the Orkor indeed, who after wrought ruin in Beleriand; but they were yet few and wary and did but smell out the ways of the land, awaiting the return of their Lord. Whence they came, or what they were, the Elves knew not then, deeming them to be Avari, maybe, that had become evil and savage in the wild. In which they guessed all too near, it is said.

Though this guess may just be an approximation of the marring of elves by Melkor, in accordance with your C-1 version (btw, that was some neat essay!).

There is also a quote I remember reading that states something about Melkor appearing in fair form to Men.

I believe you are reffering to the Atrabeth:

Then one appeared among us, in our own form visible, but greater and more beautiful; and he said that he had come out of pity.

- Ye should not have been left alone and uninstructed, he said. The world is full of marvellous riches which knowledge can unlock. Ye could have food more abundant and more delicious than the poor things that ye now eat. Ye could have dwellings of ease, in which ye could keep light and shut out the night. Ye could be clad even as I.

Then we looked and lo! he was clad in raiment that shone like silver and gold, and he had a crown on his head, and gems in his hair.

Originally Posted by Gil-galad

he made dragons as a mockery of the eagles.

Hm, the first dragons were wingless; the winged ones appeared only in the war of wrath, when it was too late anyway and the eagles beat them into submission. According to BoLT, the first dragons were "created" by Melkor at the advice of Meglin, to overcome Gondolin.

[Gil-Galad]

alright, i pulled the dragon-eagle one a little far, mind you my head was working on a 5 hour sleep then