'Elven Music in Our Times', Mira Sommer

[Bêthberry]

Thanks for posting those links, Gwathagor. They are beautiful and I enjoyed them very much.

Yet they don't work for me. I've done too much Scottish dancing and listened to too much music from Cape Breton (Nova Scotia) for me to be able to identify that with the elves. It is still primarily, to me, Celtic, the music of the race of men. I need something altogether more otherworldly, without the historical cultural signifiers, which is why I like Norgrod's suggestion of something beyond our usual musical repetoire.

There's a tradition of healing music in Japan, using the Zen bamboo flute (the Shakuhachi), which also to me sounds like something the elves would get into. But I don't imagine many Downers would second me on that.

[Gwathagor]

Since Elves are ultimately earth-bound creatures, perhaps otherworldly music doesn't fit them? Unless you just mean otherworldly in contrast to historical. (In which case I agree with you.)

[Bêthberry]

Sorry for the delay replying, Gwathagor; I was away most of yesterday.

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

Since Elves are ultimately earth-bound creatures, perhaps otherworldly music doesn't fit them? Unless you just mean otherworldly in contrast to historical. (In which case I agree with you.)

Right you are that elves are bound to the earth, yet they may leave Middle-earth for Aman, which after the sundering is no longer reachable by men. So it can be argued that they can attain something that is otherworldly.

But perhaps more to my point are the characteristics of elves which make them more in tune with ethereal world, even while in Middle-earth. As Bilbo says to Frodo of Rivendell, "Time doesn't seem to pass here; it just is" ("Many Meetings").
And their ability to inform both a material body and a spiritual essence. Frodo, striken as he is after Weathertop, sees that spiritual essence of Glorfindel in "Flight to the Ford".

Suddenly into view came a white horse, gleaming in the shadows, running swiftly. In the dusk its headstall flicered and flashed, as if it were studded with gems like living stars. The rider's cloak streamed behind him, and his hood was thrown back; his golden hair flowed shimmering in the wind of his speed. To Frodo it appeared that a white light was shining through the form and raiment of the rider, as if through a thin veil.

And before Frodo passes into unconsciousness after crossing the river, he has this strange vision, of the flood and of a white figure, which could also be Glorfindel.

Dimly Frodo saw the river below him rise, and down along its course there came a plumed cavalry of waves. White flames seemed to Frodo to flicker on their crests and he half fancied that he saw amid the water white riders upon white horses with frothing manes. . . .

With his last failing senses Frodo heard cries, and it seemed to him that he saw, beyond the Riders that hesitated on the shore, a shining figure of white light; and behind it ran samll shadowy forms waving flames, that flared red in the grey mist that was falling over the world.

I think that probably fits your contrast to historical.

[Faramir Jones]

It might be interesting for people to see the two main definitions given by The Oxford English Dictionary of 'otherworldly'.

First is 'Devoted to spiritual matters or life; ascetic, spiritual; (more generally) unworldly. Also as n. [noun] (with the): ascetic, spiritual, or unworldly people as a class (with pl. concord)'.

Second is 'Of or relating to a world other than the actual or material; esp. of or relating to a mystical or fantasy world'.

Do people think that we include the Elves in Tolkien's world under both definitions? Every race there (including Man) is part of a fantasy world, created out of an author's imagination; so all come under the second definition. But is it that Elves are supposed to live for so very long (though they are not immortal), and have gone where Man cannot follow, hanging around with the Valar, that make us also think of them, above all other races, as coming under the first definition?

[Nogrod]

I'd say the elves and the West do present themselves as the "other reality" in contrast to humans of the ME and thus I'd say they are more of the first definition. But I'm not sure if the word "unworldly" can be used in relation to them. The West is an odd mid-stop between "the world of men" and "the world beyond"...


Let me offer another possible POV for organising one's thoughts about the elven music.

In the Pythagorean / Boëthian tradition from Antiquity we have three different kinds of "music" (spheres of it, notions of it, mode of being of it) which I'd guess the prof. was aware of with his classical education.

The pure music was the "music of the spheres", the non-audible cosmic music of the reality itself (musica mundana by Boëthius).

Then there was the music of a living being (well a "learned human" in this real world of ours) in structural harmony with the universe and its principles (musica humana for Boëthius).

The third one is the music we can hear as the music we normally think of as music; sounds and rhythms to be perceived, and to be played with instruments/human voice (musica instrumentalis for B).

The first one is quite easy to identify with the music of the Ainur and the third with the music we people make (or any other ME creatures?). But the question becomes, is there the middle one? Is it the music of the Valar and Maiar (and elves?) in the West; eg. not the primordial music of the universe only Eru could organise (even if it included the Valar) but the music the purer forms of existence could have produced in the World and to teach to the elves there in the West? And thus the elven music in the ME would resound something of that purer form of music being at the same time in a way compromised by getting thus far away from the original (both being further developed by "mere elves" and being farther away from the source)?

Needs to think. The thought came faster than I could think it through...

[Gwathagor]

I think we've got two kinds of "otherwordly" here, the first being simply part of Elvish nature and the second having its ultimate source in Aman. Elves like Thranduil, Legolas, and Thingol display the first kind, elves like Galadriel, Glorfindel, and Elrond display the second kind.

For the first kind, "hypernatural" or "extranatural" might be better terms than "otherworldly." It is, in its essence, earthy. Celtic-ish music would suit this well.

The second kind, is literally otherwordly, and appears in Elves who have had contact with the Valar/Maiar or who wield artifacts imbued with their power. This group would doubtless produce the sorts of ethereal music you describe, Bethberry.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

In fact, I can't recall elves dancing at all. At least not physically.

Oh, but of course they did! Remember Luthien in the forest of Neldoreth?

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

There's a tradition of healing music in Japan, using the Zen bamboo flute (the Shakuhachi), which also to me sounds like something the elves would get into. But I don't imagine many Downers would second me on that.

I definitely would! I don't find it at all hard to imagine that Daeron or Tinfang Warble playing the flute could have sounded like this; or, if you'd like something a bit less cuddly and New-Agey, maybe that.
I also hear something Elvish in Chinese/Japanese compositions for the pipa, like e.g
Dance music for a festive evening in Rivendell
A tone poem commemorating the heroic struggles of the Noldor in the First Age
(titles invented by me)
What I find interesting about this kind of music is that one the one hand, it's very disciplined and rigorously elegant, while on the other hand (at least to European ears) it does have a weird, 'otherworldly' (...not going to discuss that in mid-sentence...) charm and, in some pieces (esp. the last one I linked) a wild, fairish abandon that really rocks. Very Elvish on both sides of the scale, as far as I'm concerned.

Gwath, I think I totally see where you're coming from. Keeping in tune with the idea of Middle-earth as calque on medieval/Dark Age Europe, it certainly makes sense to look for parallels to Elven music within the European musical tradition, whether Celtic or Gregorian.
But it just occurred to me that the culture of Middle-earth as described in the book is probably just as much a translation from the (imaginary) original as the English of the narrative representing the Westron of the 'real' Red Book. As The Prof himself said in LotR, Appendix F:

This linguistic procedure [i.e. representing the Rohirric language by Anglo-Saxon, Pw.] does not imply that the Rohirrim closely resembled the ancient English otherwise, in culture or art, in weapons or modes of warfare, except in a general way due to their circumstances [...]

We find non-European cultural influences in various parts of the Legendarium. Both Adûnaic and Khuzdûl were modelled on the Semitic language family. The Tengwar have a lot in common with Asian scripts like Devanagari or its descendants (in structural principle, if not in actual letter shapes). So why couldn't the 'original' music of the Elves have sounded like something from Tunisia or China?

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Oh, but of course they did! Remember Luthien in the forest of Neldoreth?

Well, I was thinking just in terms of LotR, but how could I forget the most famous teenage elf? Interesting, though, that Luthien's dancing is a private, solitary dance, almost a communion with the forest and natural world, and not a social activity or performance, even if secretly observed.

I definitely would! I don't find it at all hard to imagine that Daeron or Tinfang Warble playing the flute could have sounded like this; or, if you'd like something a bit less cuddly and New-Agey, maybe that.
I also hear something Elvish in Chinese/Japanese compositions for the pipa, like e.g
Dance music for a festive evening in Rivendell
A tone poem commemorating the heroic struggles of the Noldor in the First Age
(titles invented by me)

Thanks for those links. Yes, that's what I was thinking of with the shakuhachi. I've sat through an hour concert of it and it was one of the most serene and uplifting musical experiences I've ever had, very different from western concerts, either of symphony or rock/pop or church.

[Faramir Jones]

Lúthien also danced before Morgoth's throne, that being a very public occasion.

And do people not remember the elves dancing and singing in The Hobbit?

As for Bêthberry calling Lúthien a 'teenage' elf, words fail me.

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

And do people not remember the elves dancing and singing in The Hobbit?

Mmmmm. On Midsummer's Eve. By the riverside. Under the stars.

[mark12_30]

LUTHIEN:
But wandering in the summer in the woods of Neldoreth he came upon Lúthien, daughter of Thingol and Melian, at a time of evening under moonrise, as she danced upon the unfading grass in the glades beside Esgalduin.

There came a time near dawn on the eve of spring, and Lúthien danced upon a green hill; and suddenly she began to sing. Keen, heart-piercing was her song as the song of the lark that rises from the gates of night and pours its voice among the dying stars, seeing the sun behind the walls of the world; and the song of Lúthien released the bonds of winter, and the frozen waters spoke, and flowers sprang from the cold earth where her feet had passed.

ELROND'S Elves in The Hobbit:"
"Sing all ye joyful, now sing all together?
The wind's in the free-top, the wind's in the heather;
The stars are in blossom, the moon is in flower,
And bright are the windows of Night in her tower.

Dance all ye joyful, now dance all together!
Soft is the grass, and let foot be like feather!
The river is silver, the shadows are fleeting;
Merry is May-time, and merry our meeting."

..."A little sleep does a great cure in the house of Elrond," said he; "but I will take all the cure I can get. A second good night, fair friends!" And with that he went back to bed and slept till late morning.
Weariness fell from him soon in that house, and he had many a merry jest and dance, early and late, with the elves of the valley."

[mark12_30]

...and --- does Smith count? I can't help but feel he does-- The Queen of Faerie, in Smith of Wootten Major, danced with her elves in the woods; and Smith danced with them.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

As for Bêthberry calling Lúthien a 'teenage' elf, words fail me.

It's a pretty scary thought, isn't it, this elf female blossoming in the fullness of her psycho-sexual development.

'course, one has to wonder if elven women reached their sexual prime in late adolescence or, like women of the race of men, in middle age--however that designation may be determined for elves?

Could this fullness, if reached in harmony, be the middle state that Nogrod spoke of,

Then there was the music of a living being (well a "learned human" in this real world of ours) in structural harmony with the universe and its principles (musica humana for Boëthius).

[Lush]

Mmmmm. On Midsummer's Eve. By the riverside. Under the stars.

Pretty much my favourite part of The Hobbit right thar ya'll.

[Faramir Jones]

To be fair, Tolkien admitted that the singing of the Elves when Bilbo, Gandalf and the dwarves came to Rivendell was 'pretty fair nonsense I daresay you think it'. At least he didn't portray Elrond getting up to that kind of behaviour!