Why destroy Laketown's bridge?

[Sauron the White]

Bard saying "cut the bridges" is confusing becuase - according to the drawing of Laketown - I see nothing to cut. This is not some suspension bridge. Perhaps "cut the bridges" was a shorthand way of saying something else.

However, I do think the drawing - done by the same man who wrote the text so he certainly knew what he felt Laketown looked like - gives support to my initial position that Smaug did not need the bridge for any reason. He had plenty of space on the dock s around the buildings and they run the length and width of the town providing ample space to both take off and land. And they do look rather wide.

If anyone is going to postulate that they will not support Smaugs weight, that would then apply also to the entire town since its all on the same foundation. Those support pillars go right up to the edge of the docks.

But it is my contention that Smaug - being a creature who is much faster in the air - would stick to a fast and quick aerial attack because that is where his advantage lied. You can speculate about food and additional treasure all you want, but the idea of a massive dragon walking foot by foot through this rather crowded looking town while many armed people attacked him at close range, defies logic for him to take that approach. There is simply no advantage to him doing that as opposed to his great advantage in the air.

There is no reason to destroy that bridge against a creature who is attacking you from the air. When the Germans did their lengthy bombing of England in WWII, was anyone heard to say "quick, the Lutwaffe is coming, destroy London Bridge". Seems rather silly does it not.

[alatar]

Not sure of the exact mechanism, but under extreme magnification I noted that the bridge was designed to repel Smaug.

[Sauron the White]

That was rather funny. Very clever Alatar.

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

Bard saying "cut the bridges" is confusing becuase - according to the drawing of Laketown - I see nothing to cut. This is not some suspension bridge. Perhaps "cut the bridges" was a shorthand way of saying something else.

However, I do think the drawing - done by the same man who wrote the text so he certainly knew what he felt Laketown looked like - gives support to my initial position that Smaug did not need the bridge for any reason. He had plenty of space on the dock s around the buildings and they run the length and width of the town providing ample space to both take off and land. And they do look rather wide.

Text and picture obviously do not match (just take the number of bridges). Therefore, one must be faulty. Since I think Tolkien was much more careful about what he wrote than he was about what he drew, in the case of contradiction I would take the description and discard the depiction.

And even if we take the picture, landing on those docks looks dangerous, considering Smaug's speed and the fact that one misstep would make him end up in the lake.

Originally Posted by Sauron

If anyone is going to postulate that they will not support Smaugs weight, that would then apply also to the entire town since its all on the same foundation. Those support pillars go right up to the edge of the docks.

It would support the weight, but perhaps not the impact. He did crash through it when he died, and do we know whether he was able to sufficiently slow down before landing? I still think it is believable that Smaug was not able to land inside the town, but apart from the fact that it is said that he was unable to, there appears to be no evidence to either side.

Originally Posted by Sauron

But it is my contention that Smaug - being a creature who is much faster in the air - would stick to a fast and quick aerial attack because that is where his advantage lied. You can speculate about food and additional treasure all you want, but the idea of a massive dragon walking foot by foot through this rather crowded looking town while many armed people attacked him at close range, defies logic for him to take that approach. There is simply no advantage to him doing that as opposed to his great advantage in the air.

My armour is like tenfold shields, my teeth are swords, my claws spears, the shock of my tail a thunderbolt, my wings a hurricane, and my breath death!

Consider this and tell me why Smaug should be afraid of many armed people attacking him at close range? Smaug's only advantage in the air is speed and mobility. If you consider yourself invincible, this is only little advantage. To the contrary, he is much more deadly when he can engage in closer "combat", which he is unable to do while flying.

Originally Posted by Sauron

There is no reason to destroy that bridge against a creature who is attacking you from the air. When the Germans did their lengthy bombing of England in WWII, was anyone heard to say "quick, the Lutwaffe is coming, destroy London Bridge". Seems rather silly does it not.

Seems a silly analogy indeed. It would be analogous if there had been a bridge over the channel, and if there had been one, you can bet it would have been torn down in a minute.

[Sauron the White]

My armour is like tenfold shields, my teeth are swords, my claws spears, the shock of my tail a thunderbolt, my wings a hurricane, and my breath death!

Consider this and tell me why Smaug should be afraid of many armed people attacking him at close range? Smaug's only advantage in the air is speed and mobility. If you consider yourself invincible, this is only little advantage. To the contrary, he is much more deadly when he can engage in closer "combat", which he is unable to do while flying.

Based on that drawing, it looks like Laketown is a crowded place without much room for a large beast like Smaug to maneuver around, let alone quickly. I would think that to box him into a small area where several buildings converge would give attackers on the ground their best chance at him. His speed and agility and overhead advantage is removed and negated. Its like getting a fast moving boxer cornered in a smaller ring where he cannot move around and use his advantages.

Closer combat means his eyes are closer to attackers and how does he protect those? It also lessens the distance between the fired arrows and means they have more force when they hit since they are not going so far out and upwards. I would think the physics of war would be more on the sides of the townies when they can shoot at closer range and perhaps use buildings as shields and protection. But thats just speculation.

I would equate Smaugs boasting to modern day pro wreslters who thump their chests and boast how they will rip out the organs of their opponent while reading from a prepared script. Its part of the show and is all hype and bluster. I think Smaug was not above that sort of thing.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

His speed and agility and overhead advantage is removed and negated. Its like getting a fast moving boxer cornered in a smaller ring where he cannot move around and use his advantages.

I don't know where you get the idea that Smaug's advantages (or even his greatest advantages) are speed and agility. What about his size and strength (knocking down roofs with his tail, crashing through the city), his fiery breath and his armour? If you want to fight him at close range, be my guest - I'd prefer to keep my distance.

It also lessens the distance between the fired arrows and means they have more force when they hit since they are not going so far out and upwards.

Indeed, they are not going upwards, and therefore are aimed at the toughest part of the dragon.

I would think the physics of war would be more on the sides of the townies when they can shoot at closer range and perhaps use buildings as shields and protection. But thats just speculation.

They can use buildings more effectively for this purpose when Smaug isn't close enough to smash or incinerate said buildings.

[Sauron the White]

It is wonderful that the human condition permits us to take the same set of facts and come to the very opposite conclusions.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

It is wonderful that the human condition permits us to take the same set of facts and come to the very opposite conclusions.

It's that 'priors' thing, or which colour your spectacles are when you view said data.

And, not to add too much more, but aren't all aerial attacks followed up by a ground assault? Was Smaug just trying to stay on script? Did Sauron, who could have used Smaug if he were living at the time of the Fellowship, somehow want Smaug to preserve what he could of Laketown to use as a base?

[The Sixth Wizard]

Those who think it would be smarter to attack Smaug while he was landridden, I don't think you get the fear factor here. Fighting him with bows as he swoops lazily over your burning town is scary enough; fighting a monster who can breathe fire on wood (again, wood) with close range weapons is just too much for even the bravest warriors. No-one would stay to fight, except maybe Bard.

[Bêthberry]

As to the question of bridge versus bridges, it is quite possible that Laketown had internal bridges and not only the one bridge leading from shore to "pontoon" town, as it were. (Yes, I know the town was not technically a floating town.) Tolkien's drawing uses the perspective of the shoreline and so would not necessarily show the inner bridge work, although it does show possible side "canals" into the town. It does not in fact show the sheltering rock which his text mentions either--again, simply the fact that one drawing cannot reproduce all the aspects of perspective available to a written text. In this case, the thousand words actually are more informative.

Originally Posted by TH, "A Warm Welcome"

Not far from the mouth of the Forest River was the strange town he heard the elves speak of in the king's cellars. It was not built on the shore, though there were a few huts and buildings there, but right out on the surface of the lake, protected from the swirl of the entering river by a promontory of rock which formed a calm bay. A great bridge made of wood ran out to where on huge piles made of forest trees was built a busy wooden town, not a town of elves but of Men, who still dared to dwell here under the shadow of the distant dragon-mountain.

Interestingly, Alan Lee's drawing of Laketown picks up on this possiblity of canals:



As for whether a fire breathing dragon could be squelched by spirts of SuperSoakers, well, that depends upon the anatomy of said dragon and the method of producing the fire. Certainly it is unlikely that any internal forge is at work, as we would have to question how the dragon's interal organs would withstand the fire. Here's a most interesting analysis of how intelligently to design a fire breathing dragon:

The Scientifc Feasibility of Fire Breathing Dragons

If this design of a methane-holding bladder in the head is feasible, it would possibly provide two uses: not simply to produce fire, but also to act as ballast, allowing the dragon to fly by his own internal 'hot air balloon'. So the dragon would be forced to employ a balancing act as it were: too much fire production would hinder his flight capabilities, thus necessitating some sort of ground assault.

As for the generation of fire, the spark necessary to ignite the gas from this bladder could easily be what the SuperSoakers would aim for. So they would not necessarily be putting out the flames so much as inhibiting the production of the flames.

[davem]

Destroying the bridge is the smartest thing to do in terms of survival - you set up a defensive position, with no access from/to the shore & fill it with archers. This allows the rest of the population to escape in dribs & drabs by boats, landing at many different points around the lake, while Smaug is distracted in attacking the town. Having everybody trying to escape via the bridge would be idiotic, as they'd all be funneled onto the same part of the shore line. Bard & the defenders are setting themselves up as a diversion to allow their fellow citizens to escape.

Now, of course, that may not have worked out:

Soon all the town would be deserted and burned down to the surface of the lake.
That was the dragon's hope. They could all get into boats for all he cared. There he could have fine sport hunting them, or they could stop till they starved. Let them try to get to land and he would be ready. Soon he would set all the shoreland woods ablaze and wither every field and pasture. Just now he was enjoying the sport of town-baiting more than he had enjoyed anything for years.

but the point is they are fighting for survival against almost impossible odds. Most likely they will all die but they're making the best of a very bad situation. Quite simply, destroying the bridge is just marginally smarter than not destroying it.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

while the city was crowded and cramped not allowing him to land, it was big enough for him to manuever around - or perhaps small enough enabling him to walk over the structures

Do you know how strong Smaug is?

My armour is like tenfold shields, my teeth are swords, my claws spears, the shock of my tail a thunderbolt, my wings a hurricane, and my breath death!

Even if this is an exaggeration, he could easily take down buildings with his arms and tail. This would be easy for him. He just walks around, smashing down buildings and killing all people in his way.

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

Closer combat means his eyes are closer to attackers and how does he protect those?

He had eye-caps like snakes. If Melkor designed a killing machine based on a reptile, wouldn't he have given it the best weapons protection reptiles had to offer? In fact, wouldn't he have give it the best weapons and protection any animal has to offer (And beyond)?

And as for your question of how they broke down the bridges?

What about Motte and bailey castles ages ago (around 1066+). They could get rid of that bridge immediately. (examples here, here, here, here and here
Or they could end it with a drawbridge, like here and here

[The Sixth Wizard]

If this design of a methane-holding bladder in the head is feasible, it would possibly provide two uses: not simply to produce fire, but also to act as ballast, allowing the dragon to fly by his own internal 'hot air balloon'. So the dragon would be forced to employ a balancing act as it were: too much fire production would hinder his flight capabilities, thus necessitating some sort of ground assault.

Let's forget about this methane-bladder theory, please. Dragon's fire, at least in Tolkien, is created through the physical form of the dragon's inner fea, the fire spirit that has been corrupted by Morgoth. Adding in actual bodily elements, while quite interesting, is much too complicated for this thread methinks. I think we should keep it simple for now.

Sorry to completely snub you Bêth...

[Sauron the White]

from eonwe

Do you know how strong Smaug is?

Wiseguy answer #1- if you have stats as to his ablities to lift weights please provide them.
Wiseguy answer #2 - no and neither do you, its all speculation and conjecture

Actual answer to your question: You seem to accept the premise that Smaug needs to land in Laketown at all. Again, there is no evidence that Smaug intended to land in Laketown or needed to land in Laketown. Tearning down a bridge to thwart a flying creature who is attacking you in the air is nonsensical no matter how many people want to talk about land invasions.

And yet again I refer you and others to the actual drawing that JRRT made of Laketown where it clearly shows wide dockside areas that are much wider than the bridge. If Smaug had intended to land in the town, he clearly had ample space to do so. The fact is this: he did not chose to do so.

He had eye-caps like snakes. If Melkor designed a killing machine based on a reptile, wouldn't he have given it the best weapons protection reptiles had to offer? In fact, wouldn't he have give it the best weapons and protection any animal has to offer (And beyond)?

You give this information as if it were holy writ that has been approved by decades of scientific investigation. Melkor himself spent long years trying to breed dragons and failed continually to get the ones that he wanted to get. They were imperfect. How do you know that Smaug was such a perfect fighting machine with the protections you ascribe to him? Again, its all speculation and conjecture. You do not KNOW what his eyes were any more than I do. I am speculating that he had his eyes open to see what was going on. Those eyes are targets for someone on the ground close to them.

They could get rid of that bridge immediately. (examples here, here, here, here and here
Or they could end it with a drawbridge, like here and here

Thank you for those pictures. Sadly, none of them are the bridge that Tolkien himself drew and is pictured in this thread. The bridge Tolkien drew is different and more substantial with thick pillars supporting it along its span. It is not a drawbridge, or a suspension bridge and there is no mention of it being rigged for easy destruction. Just the opposite. Tolkine's own illustration - which conveniently some here want to dismiss because it supports my argument - shows a substantial structure built on many thick pillars. There is nothing to quickly "cut".

[Eönwë]

Sauron the White, I am sure that there is something about Glaurung's which suggests this, and when I have more time I'll try to find the quote for you.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by The Sixth Wizard

Let's forget about this methane-bladder theory, please. Dragon's fire, at least in Tolkien, is created through the physical form of the dragon's inner fea, the fire spirit that has been corrupted by Morgoth. Adding in actual bodily elements, while quite interesting, is much too complicated for this thread methinks. I think we should keep it simple for now.

Sorry to completely snub you Bêth...

Oh, not a snub at all, no need to apologize, Sixth Wiz.

Your comment simply demonstrates your relative newbie-ness, as someone who, having joined in April 2006, likely has not had the pleasure of recognizing how some of us olde timers like to posit hypotheses. I refer you of course to one of the most speculative of threads, started April 10, 2005 (heavens! but three years old, almost still smelling of that new car smell!), alatar's "Snow Angels" thread , wherein Lalwende reports her extensive experiments with custard. It is possible methane had a passing mention there too. I believe it was Mister Underhill and Sharkey who contributed mightily to instigating this particular form of speculation--their thread certainly would not have any lingering new car smell. I bet Esty could provide a link to that thread.

Do continue of course with your own speculations. I suppose we could posit that Gandalf had no need for a staff to focus his fireworks, but simply preferred not to be mistaken for a mouthy dragon.