LotR3-RotK-Seq02

[Essex]

Originally Posted by alatar

We see the battered remains of Saruman’s fortress in the light of day as the Riders approach what remains of the gate of Isengard.

Whenever I see Isengard I can't get the size right in my head - it always looks like a model, exept in this shot - it looks more life like when we have the trees to frame the shot perhaps.

Merry and Pippin are just where we’d left them, amidst the spoils of armies enjoying a bit of flotsam and jetsam.

Just realised after my millionth viewing that they don't seem surprised to see Gandalf. Now us book readers obv. know why this is, but did Movie Gandalf go to see Treebeard? book gandalf went so he could ask treebeard to send his troops towards helm's deep to mop up the stray orcs. Movie Treebeard had already sent them off though.....

A voice is heard, and we know that Saruman has come. Saruman, straight from the books, sues for peace with King Théoden. Though I love the words uttered, and the actors do a fine job, I think that the scene would benefit if Bernard Hill were to hesitate before answering - a dramatic pause to enhance the gibbets.

I agree. BBC radio get this scene SO well.

Saruman spouts some scorn at ‘Gorn, who seems to have a surfer ‘whatever!’ expression on his face. It’s almost like Viggo is thinking, “when will that old man shut up? I want to get back to either a Liv or action scene.”

To be fair, book Aragorn doesn;t talk to Saruman either.......

Gimli, like me, has heard enough and suggests that someone “stick an arrow in his gob.” Gob is an interesting word. Does it mean ‘mouth?’

following the book at least - it is gimli who pipes up first at saruman.

Gandalf begs, yet again, for Saruman to come down.

as he does twice in the book.....

Gandalf breaks Saruman’s staff, which we could have done five minutes ago, but… Who’s this? All of that yelling has woken poor Grima, who must have taken the elevator/lift to the top.

notice the book has this take place at the balcony rather than the top of orthanc.

Did my DVD just skip or did Gandalf just repeat himself? Wonderful dialogue; so much so that we have to repeat it. “Please, oh pretty please Saruman, please tell me what you know.” Saruman, committing the oft-cited Pjism, tells Gandalf to remove his guard then Saruman will spill the beans. This makes no sense, as to me there is no reason for Saruman to leave – and if the Ents really wanted to kill the Treeslayer, well, they and the one-stone one-kill hobbits had plenty of chances.

well, it does kind of follow the book. instead of asking him to withdraw theoden's forces, book saruman replaces this with a comment about the Ents ready to give him what for.....

Legolas, that crusader for justice, takes it upon himself to kill Grima for stabbing Saruman. And his arrow, of course, is lethal. It would have been nice to see such bowmanship when an Uruk ran towards the Helm’s Deep wall with a magical torch, but I guess that you can’t have everything.

he did hit that orc. armour is a wonderful thing!

Legolas and Gimli begin to participate in a drinking game after Éomer explains the rules. Gimli takes to it like a hog to mud, and his table manners are pretty porcine and his behavior asinine.

painful scene to watch, but my 8 year old loves this scene. Must try to remember this Movie is for kids too, not just 30 something guys tut tutting at the screen every 5 minutes!!!

Éowyn brings a cup to that other King guy, Aragorn, and makes a pass for his attention/affections.

I love this scene, straight from the book.

Aragorn and Gandalf discuss Frodo.

I don't mind this scene, even though it has nothing to do with the book. just leads us back nicely to our two hobbits.


Regarding these scenes, and Pippin's cheeky look into the stone later on.....

Reading the book again, it's not clearly mentioned why gandalf sets off for Minas Tirith. (exept in a quick aside to Pippin on Shadowfax) And obviously book Pippin doesn't see the burning tree in his vision. But PJ has decided to put the whole reason-detre around these scenes being the catalyst for the everyone to move towards Minas Tirith. Not really to my liking, but I can put up with it I suppose......

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Essex

Just realised after my millionth viewing that they don't seem surprised to see Gandalf. Now us book readers obv. know why this is, but did Movie Gandalf go to see Treebeard? book gandalf went so he could ask treebeard to send his troops towards helm's deep to mop up the stray orcs. Movie Treebeard had already sent them off though.....

Ah, but you forget that Treebeard hauled the little orcs off to see the White Wizard, who would decide their fate. Remember the scene where Merry and Pippin are cast to the ground and they look up to something that shines like a white light? PJ was playing with us, making us think that Treebeard was handing the hobbits over to Saruman, the other White Wizard. So that's why they aren't surprised to see Gandalf.

notice the book has this take place at the balcony rather than the top of orthanc.

Saruman and Wormtongue watched the flooding of Isengard from the balcony, and that was when the Ents were 'hot.' Being on the roof surely was safer but unnecessary.

he did hit that orc. armour is a wonderful thing!

...especially when it's invisible. Legolas hit the 'running orc' twice, once in each shoulder. Was this orc's head that thick? Don't remember seeing glasses, and so this orc's eyes must have been protected by some really good contact lenses - why else not an eyeshot? But I concede that the wall had to be breached, and so will quit my whining.

painful scene to watch, but my 8 year old loves this scene. Must try to remember this Movie is for kids too, not just 30 something guys tut tutting at the screen every 5 minutes!!!

If only to be only "30 something" again...I have no problem having something in there for the kids, but does the humor always have to go to the (insert appropriate word meaning the equivalent for 'toilet')?

Reading the book again, it's not clearly mentioned why gandalf sets off for Minas Tirith. (exept in a quick aside to Pippin on Shadowfax) And obviously book Pippin doesn't see the burning tree in his vision. But PJ has decided to put the whole reason-detre around these scenes being the catalyst for the everyone to move towards Minas Tirith. Not really to my liking, but I can put up with it I suppose......

Gandalf sets off for Minas Tirith to (1) get Pippin as far away from the palantir as possible and (2) get to Minas Tirith before the storm breaks. The Winged Nazgul have crossed the Anduin, and so Gandalf, unlike his movie counterpart, knows that war is nigh and that it will strike at Minas Tirith.

Thanks for posting.

[Sir Kohran]

Back at last to the Barrows...I seem to have missed a bit. Anyhow, back to the action:

Aragorn, Gandalf, Gimli and Legolas accompany the Rohirrim, or at least Théoden and Éomer, through the Fangorn Forest Traveling Road Show. One must assume that they are riding through trees that previously weren’t there, as I can’t recall the Uruks marching towards Helm’s Deep through a forest. The trees therein are twisted and gnarled; just what one would expect of Fangorn.

I like this opening - we see the horsemen and we slowly realize who they are. A quiet way to reconnect us with the world of the heroes that was developed in The Two Towers.

It's good how the forest seems a bit ominous. It must be the Huorns.

Also, it's very appropriate that the Gondor music theme plays as the title 'The Return Of The King' appears on the screen.

Merry and Pippin are just where we’d left them, amidst the spoils of armies enjoying a bit of flotsam and jetsam. Smoking! Hammer and tongs! What would Ofcom think about that? Anyway, we learn that these two hobbits are back to their Shire selves, laughing and bragging about sloth. They see and then greet their friends with a bit of brag and bravado.

I like this scene - one of the few light moments in the movie before the storm comes. Also, it's good character development - compare these two laughing, silly Hobbits with the two heroes they later become.

A bit disappointed that Theoden didn't get to talk to the Hobbits about pipe-weed, but I guess the focus is on the re-union of the Fellowship.

Gimli’s salivating over salted pork makes one wonder what poor provender was to be had at Helm’s Deep. Cram?

Wasn't there a scene at Helm's Deep in the Extended Edition where Eowyn was told they didn't have much food? If so, the rations would have been rather meagre for everyone - especially when fighting for an entire night.

The party wades the waters of Orthanc while Gandalf is greeted by Treebeard. We learn that Gandalf is young in comparison,

What DOES this 'Young Master Gandalf' line mean? As a Maia, isn't Gandalf older than Treebeard?

Gandalf the weak and worried?

I know...this weakening of Gandalf annoys me worst of all the changes in the whole trilogy. The nervous, uncertain Gandalf we see here really irritates me.


Frankly, I just dislike the whole 'Voice Of Saruman' scene. Not really because it's a bad scene, it's just delivered rather flatly, probably because they tried a bit too hard to make it mesh with the situation in the book, and the book lines don't really jive with the different situation in the movie. This strange mix makes for two many unexplained lines, and some very silly actions (the murder of Grima, etc.)

Still, at least the film-makers made an effort to go by the books...which is more than can be said for other scenes.

Anyway, Saruman starts blathering about festerings only seen by the Eye, and I’m lost. His ramblings are without information, telling me (and hopefully Gandalf) nothing that we don’t already know.

Apparently, the festerings were supposed to refer to Denethor's madness...though I can't understand how the Steward of Gondor is the 'heart' of Middle-Earth.

Saruman professes knowledge of, seemingly, Frodo, and one would think that if Saruman knows about Frodo’s quest, then so does Sauron. Or not.

Note that he only talks about the 'Halfling' - he doesn't seem to know it's Frodo. And anyway, it's correct with the books:

Originally Posted by JRR Tolkien

The Enemy, of course, has long known that the Ring is abroad, and that it is borne by a Hobbit.

So it's perfectly correct that Sauron and Saruman in the films would know vaguely about the quest.

And anyway, in the first film, didn't Saruman order Lurtz to bring back the Halflings?

Gimli, like me, has heard enough and suggests that someone “stick an arrow in his gob.” Gob is an interesting word. Does it mean ‘mouth?’

Yes - it's British slang, and considered rather rude. If I wanted to be rude, I'd shout "Shut yer gob!" I don't know if New Zealanders use it, however.

Finally Saruman has had enough and shoots a fireball from his staff at Gandalf. As I’ve stated previously, what a handy spell to have in hand if, say, a bunch of creatures composed of wood were to show up at your door.

But in the books, the Istari are limited in what they can do - can't they only use power appropriate to their enemy? Compare Gandalf using magic against the Balrog to Gandalf just using his staff and sword against the Orcs. In that case, a fireball wouldn't be allowed against mortals, but the immortal Gandalf is a reasonable target. I guess Saruman still obeyed that rule.

All the same, in mere movie terms, it does seem rather strange.

How anyone sees Grima up there is a mystery.

I don't even want to go into how ridiculous a conversation between the two heights is (though I do like Theoden's mercy towards Grima - it's a shame he never got to repent for his sins).

This makes no sense, as to me there is no reason for Saruman to leave – and if the Ents really wanted to kill the Treeslayer, well, they and the one-stone one-kill hobbits had plenty of chances.

As an aside, in both the movies and the books, WHY do the Ents wreak terrible slaughter on Saruman's slaves (people and creatures who didn't really have a choice in what they did), and yet are prepared to let the real cause of all their grief go unharmed?

Grima, discovers that, in the few days that he’s been with Saruman that he’s a lousy roommate, and so decides to ventilate him.

I like Grima's revenge here - though Legolas's response just ruins it all. Also, Grima should have said something more than just "No!".

Legolas, that crusader for justice, takes it upon himself to kill Grima for stabbing Saruman.

Why the heck does this happen? Is Legolas some sort of psycho lusting for killing? Did he not have enough targets at Helm's Deep just one day before? The whole thing just screams 'plot device to get rid of uneeded character'.

Gandalf, seeing the other maia being stabbed (great eyesight that, as Grima is behind Saruman, and even if Saruman stood on the very edge of the tower, you’d still have a hard time understanding what was happening), makes some kind of face that almost seems ‘happy.’

Looking again, he clenches his teeth and frowns. Probably because he's lost a major source for information. Or because this is the last time in the whole trilogy where he gets to take on a major bad guy and have it make any sense. (you should be able to guess which later scene I'm referring to...).

Saruman turns 180 degrees and falls backwards. Spinning as he falls, Saruman lands right on the Spiky Wheel of Much Conjecture (remember those days?).

More stupid PJ indulgences. Hadn't Christopher Lee been impaled enough times in movie history?

And I don't like how the wheel just conveniently appears right where Saruman falls. Did it move there deliberately? Was it also turning against Saruman (awful pun) at the bitter end? ("Et tu, Big Spiky Wheel?")

Gandalf and those on the ground are unconcerned with the passing of the other wizard.

It gets me that they used so many rather throw-away book lines in Saruman's speech, but when some book remarks about Saruman's end could have been very useful, everyone just shrugs at the death of the tyrant who could have taken over the entire West, had things gone his way.

Treebeard, looking very CG, does his best at a one-liner, then continues to ramble about trees returning to Isengard.

Why is Treebeard present at the foot of Orthanc when Gandalf and co. first arrive, and then vanishes for the entire exchange with Saruman, but is then in the exact same place as before once Saruman has died?

He tells King Théoden to get on the horn and let everyone know that Sauron will attack soon, but where? Gondor? Bree? Moria? Where? Where will the heavy hand of Mordor fall?

For book-readers such as us, I guess it's meant to be a way of confirming that the battles in Dale and Lothlorien took place in the movie world too, but like most lines in this chapter it sounds a bit odd.

This, unlike other methods, is the tried and true method of finding the enemy on the march.

Six horses cross the plains on the way back to Edoras, which is no worse for wear.

I like the long shot of Edoras with Eowyn...but why aren't there any guards with the company?

The King toasts the dead and dearly departed. Think that he may have forgotten to mention those well-dressed chaps that seemed to have all perished in the defense of men.

He just says 'those who gave their blood to defend this country' - so I guess that includes Haldir and his force...though I can understand why the Rohirrim don't show much gratitude. After all, what did the Elves do at Helm's Deep, other than providing sword-practise for the Uruks? Not enough to merit a memorial, I shouldn't think...

No time for that, but we do have time for a drinking scene. Back to the game: Gimli becomes more and more the buffoon and it’s over the top stupid as he loses to the Elf, who feels almost no affect from the alcohol.

I agree. It's really frustrating that PJ says he didn't put in stuff from the books because there wasn't room for it, but then he finds time for this unfunny rubbish.

Merry and Pippin rescue us with a song and dance on a tabletop. Pippin comes up short when he looks at Gandalf. Something is afoot, I guess, and soon we’ll learn what that is.

Seems kind of ironic that in the old FOTR Sequences, people were annoyed that Merry and Pippin were foolish and silly. Now, they are the ones rescuing us from even greater foolery and silliness...I feel terribly sorry for poor Gimli.

I was pleased to see the reference to the Green Dragon in there. It's even better when you see the Hobbits there at the end of the film...but they're not singing there. A subtle way of showing their growing up.

If Gandalf doesn’t know the whereabouts or condition of Frodo, does anyone?

I suppose not...aside from Faramir, and who knows how many Rangers that must have overheard him in Osgiliath...and that's not counting the stupid Nazgul incident.

Gandalf feels it in his heart that Frodo is yet uncaught and unconquered. Lucky for Gandalf that Aragorn is there to prop him up.

This is actually okay with me as Gandalf shows a little confidence in saying that Frodo is alive.

Next week we’ll see if Gandalf heart truly measures Frodo’s condition.

I look forward to it...thanks for the great posts, alatar and Essex. They make me think about the films more deeply.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Sir Kohran

I like this scene - one of the few light moments in the movie before the storm comes. Also, it's good character development - compare these two laughing, silly Hobbits with the two heroes they later become.

My only problem (well, it most likely seems that I have a problem with everything...) is that we start with the hobbits as they were 6+ hours ago. Watching the movies as they came out yearly in the theater, maybe we need to be reminded that these two are fools until necessity calls for more. But watching the movies back to back, it's like Merry and Pip grow up a bit then quickly revert. Frodo does not do the same, and Gandalf is on a terrible slide from confident leader to quivering jelly, so there's precedent for not having to remind us.

A bit disappointed that Theoden didn't get to talk to the Hobbits about pipe-weed, but I guess the focus is on the re-union of the Fellowship.

To quote movie Boromir, that leaves more time for drinking...scenes.

Wasn't there a scene at Helm's Deep in the Extended Edition where Eowyn was told they didn't have much food? If so, the rations would have been rather meagre for everyone - especially when fighting for an entire night.

Don't remember seeing that, and surely if Gimli were that hungry he could have found something to eat. Wasn't Helm's Deep under siege for less than 24 hours? I think that it may just be another comic moment from the Dwarf.

What DOES this 'Young Master Gandalf' line mean? As a Maia, isn't Gandalf older than Treebeard?

Was that in maia, man, Ent or Warg years?

So it's perfectly correct that Sauron and Saruman in the films would know vaguely about the quest.

In the books I thought that Saruman did his best to conceal knowledge from Sauron; in the movie it seems more like Saruman is the Eye's toady. We'll see more later why the whereabouts of the Ring and who knows what makes no sense, especially as we've already seen a Nazgul 'see' the Ring in Frodo's hand in Osgiliath.

As an aside, in both the movies and the books, WHY do the Ents wreak terrible slaughter on Saruman's slaves (people and creatures who didn't really have a choice in what they did), and yet are prepared to let the real cause of all their grief go unharmed?

My point exactly. In the books if that one Ent (can't recall the name) would have caught Saruman outside of Orthanc, well, Gandalf could have skipped the visit (but then no palantir ). In the movie the Ents could have slain Saruman at any time, and I don't think that he had his staff on the balcony. Anyway, that's why I wondered if it were that Saruman was more open to attack sans staff. Or did Grima recover a special anti-Istari knife in the barrows outside Edoras, like a complete alternate universe thing mirroring Merry's recovery of his Witchbane blade?

It gets me that they used so many rather throw-away book lines in Saruman's speech, but when some book remarks about Saruman's end could have been very useful, everyone just shrugs at the death of the tyrant who could have taken over the entire West, had things gone his way.

You're so right. Wasn't Saruman 'the baddy' for movies 1 and 2? So why is there no resolution when he dies? No one even quips, "One down, one to go."

Why is Treebeard present at the foot of Orthanc when Gandalf and co. first arrive, and then vanishes for the entire exchange with Saruman, but is then in the exact same place as before once Saruman has died?

Ents can move very fast, it is said, and, like a squid, create a blackness that confuses their enemies. That and Treebeard could just sense that fireball coming.

I like the long shot of Edoras with Eowyn...but why aren't there any guards with the company?

It was to be a surprise party; everyone jumped out after the King showed up.

Seems kind of ironic that in the old FOTR Sequences, people were annoyed that Merry and Pippin were foolish and silly. Now, they are the ones rescuing us from even greater foolery and silliness...I feel terribly sorry for poor Gimli.

At least they started out silly. Gimli was grim, then in FotR EE he was shown to be thoughtful when he spoke about Galadriel. Somewhere between the Emyn Muil and Rohan Gimli was replaced by the the Buffoon.

This is actually okay with me as Gandalf shows a little confidence in saying that Frodo is alive.

"The sun and stars have not been blotted from the sky, and the Eye's banner do not fly from North to South, East to West, and so I'm going to go out on a limb here and think that Frodo's okay." What happened to Gandalf standing at night, while the others rested, looking over the horizon, 'seeing' something that confirmed what he felt in his heart?

I look forward to it...thanks for the great posts, alatar and Essex. They make me think about the films more deeply.

Thanks for your observations.

[Macalaure]

In my mind the Voice of Saruman part of the movies is one of the weakest.

In the appendices the writers say that they had to strip the scene to the bare essentials. You feel this when you watch it. It's the most loveless part of the trilogy. The "let's get this scene done already"-mentality is ever present.

But one by one...

I wonder that nobody has yet complained about Merry and Pippin welcoming the others. Getting high on pipe-weed??? What were they thinking? No really, what?* I don't understand why they didn't take the greeting from the book. It was funny, too. It wasn't too long. And it wasn't stupid.

Interesting to see that Saruman can talk to the others without shouting. Well, he's a wizard, you might say, but how is Théoden able to answer without shouting, then?
Théoden not hesitating strips the scene from all its suspense, to me. A lot of depth for both Théoden and Saruman is lost for saving a few seconds of time.

The fireball...
It not only makes no sense to me, but it looks like a very cheap effect, too.

"Saruman, your staff..." ..exploded???
Sigh... what a nice effect would it have been if the staff just cracked along its length and then fell out of his hand.

The deaths of Saruman and Gríma had to be dealt with this way or similarly, but it was all too quick. It's sad PJ gave the chief villain of TTT such an unspectacular ending.
I think Saruman's death ultimately belongs to the end of TTT. It would have been the natural ending of the second film. Pippin's finding the Palantír then would have to be included in flashback at the beginning of RotK. (by the way, did anybody count how often Isildur cuts off the fingers of Sauron? Or how often the Witch-King stabs Frodo? )

The drinking game... I'm still speechless about it...

...okay, I'm not. What were the writers thinking? They know the Hobbit. And even if it wasn't nonsense from the start, the scene is so horribly out of character (Game over!), it makes you (read: me) almost weep.
Only good thing about it: Millions of Tolkien fans can always rightfully complain that the movie makers could have included this or that scene if only they've left out the drinking game.
They could have done the Old Forest, Tom Bombadil and the Barrowdowns if only they've left out the drinking game.


This just had to be said. Now I feel better.

There's actually one thing I like very much and that is Pippin. As soon as he touches the Palantír, he seems to have changed into a proper character. He will have some very nice scenes later in Minas Tirith.


Thanks for bearing with me.


*Just remembered: In one appendix they say they've told the hobbit actors to suggest things that would make them laugh. I've got a terrible suspicion...

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Sir Kohran

What DOES this 'Young Master Gandalf' line mean? As a Maia, isn't Gandalf older than Treebeard?

Was he a Maiar in the film? The concept is never explained (and nor is it in the book). As far as film-goers are concerned (just like us pre-Silmarillion, pre-Unfinished Tales book readers, originally) Gandalf is simply a Man, albeit an incredibly powerful and wizardly one. No indication is given of his age. Treebeard, on the other hand, is specifically stated (in the book) to be one of the oldest living beings within Middle-earth.

Yes - it's British slang, and considered rather rude. If I wanted to be rude, I'd shout "Shut yer gob!" I don't know if New Zealanders use it, however.

Probably. Australians certainly do.

Originally Posted by Sir Kohran

Hadn't Christopher Lee been impaled enough times in movie history?

Wasn't that rather the point (if you'll pardon the pun )?

Originally Posted by alatar

Wasn't Saruman 'the baddy' for movies 1 and 2? So why is there no resolution when he dies? No one even quips, "One down, one to go."

Originally Posted by alatar

The deaths of Saruman and Gríma had to be dealt with this way or similarly, but it was all too quick. It's sad PJ gave the chief villain of TTT such an unspectacular ending.

I have only watched the scene once or twice. But I recall rather enjoying it. Perhaps, though, that was just a sense of relief that it was included at all. It made absolutely no sense, in the theatrical release, for no explanation to be given as to what happened to the major "baddie" for the first two films. I recall arguing rather strongly at the time of the theatrical release that it was a major mistake, so I was glad to see it in the EEE. I agree, though, that it would best have been included at the end of TTT, bringing a conclusion, as it were, to Saruman's role in the tale.

And as regards the much-maligned drinking scene, I must admit that it (along with other generally disdained "film-Gimli-isms") amuses me. The film must cater for those of us (like Essex's kids) who appreciate toilet humour too, you know. Is it that the humour genuinely does not appeal, is it that it is "just not Tolkien" or is it the denigration of Gimli's character? Personally, I have no problem with any of those, but I can understand the last of those reasons better than the others.

I do agree that, in the light of Galion's misdemeanors in the Hobbit, it makes no sense that Legolas is immune to the effects of alcohol. Then again, remember that these are Jackson's Elves, not Tolkien's Elves ...

[Essex]

Originally Posted by Sir Kohran

Quote:
Legolas, that crusader for justice, takes it upon himself to kill Grima for stabbing Saruman.

Why the heck does this happen? Is Legolas some sort of psycho lusting for killing? Did he not have enough targets at Helm's Deep just one day before? The whole thing just screams 'plot device to get rid of uneeded character'

It's beause Legolas is trying to stop Grima killing Saruman so Gandalf can get the info from him that Minas Tirith is next to fall.