a quote I hope makes film 3...

Hey All... (this is my first ever post!) <P>The quote "I am thirsty", said by Frodo in the ROTK <P>Well, what do we all think? The religious connotations are palpable, which may or may not convince PJ to avoid such overt references & therefore leave it out..<P>I think it's a great line from the book and I hope it finds its way into the film; I mean sure, it's very short & succinct and many might think whether or not it'll be included ultimately inconsequential.. But I feel (regardless of any pious overtones) it's a quote of great profundity and the time when Frodo speaks these words, sets the mood perfectly.. So, what are the chances that Pete will include Frodo saying these words as they appear in the text??<P>

[The Only Real Estel]

To tough to call.

[samrohan]

Why would PJ have to worry about religious connotations?<P>To me and probably 98 percent of everyone, that phrase "I am thirsty" has nothing to do with religion in any way.<P>I am sure that you could cross reference many more three word phrases both found in a religious context and in the LOTR.<BR>

Hang on a minute, when did anyone say Peter would have to "worry" (persay) about Religious connotations?<P>The guy's the director, if he wants to put it in, well and good - if not, it's all good too.. No dramas<P>However just in terms of debate, it would be interesting to know whether or not PJ decided to included (or excluded) this line because of its aforesaid overtones.. Of course, further to this point and on the other hand, as you alluded to, it could be argued that such acceptaions have gone unnoticed..<P>I find that notion somewhat hard to believe though:<P>At the crucifixion, when nailed to the cross, Christ says "I am thirsty" ...This occurs at the penultimate moment before His death, and these words are uttered to fulfil the scripture..<P>I am acutely aware (as any Tolkien aficionados would be) of his disdain for allegory, however an author cannot be wholly unaffected by their beliefs or empirical experiences (which he freely conceded also) <P>Yes, this line is an anomaly in the context of the rest of the novel and when taking note of what Tolkien himself has declared on this matter.. There are messages and metaphors littered throughout the Lord of the Rings but most are implicit and just beneath the surface.. This one appears not to be so - but his vehement conviction for Catholicism is so strong I can understand how he may have made an exception at this highly poignant moment (in terms of the story)<P>I could be wrong, but the similarities are too great to discount it - it's a point in the book when Frodo decides to say nothing more, lest his Quest is achieved.. However he utters one final line which, without much thought as to its relevance or meaning, still seems to fit just perfectly.. I hope PJ can recreate that mood somehow

[The Only Real Estel]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>This one appears not to be so - but his vehement conviction for Catholicism is so strong I can understand how he may have made an exception at this highly poignant moment (in terms of the story)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Actually I believe Tolkien converted to Christianity. Although I can't say as that it makes a difference in what you're saying, because they're probably lots of parrells between both Catholicism & Christianity in LOTR.

[Thenamir]

You know, PJ has never shied away from including overt religious references in the films so far. For example: <P><UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>The scene in FOTR where Frodo and Sam are crossing the wheatfield is a direct nod to the story of Jesus crossing the grainfields with his disciples. Sam's plaintive statement "If I take one more step, it'll be the farthest away from home that I've ever been" is a plain reference to how far the disciples had come in their instruction, but how far they still had to go.<P><LI>Tolkien's invention of the Ents (and PJ inclusion of them in the films) harks back to the description in Isaiah of the trees of the field breaking forth in shouts and clapping their hands.<P><LI>Gandalf's staff in Moria is an obvious reference to God's creative power evidenced in Genesis when He said "Let there be light!"<P><LI>The representation of Gimli at Helm's Deep, too short to see over the wall in front of him is a direct incorporation of the story of Zaccheus, the short man who could not see the action over the crowd in the Gospels.<BR></UL><P>There are other examples too numerous to mention. Surely PJ would not eliminate such a completely canonical line, so crucial to the continuing plot tension, even if it is an obvious Biblical reference.<P>

[Lord of Angmar]

Welcome to the Downs, Smaug! <P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Why would PJ have to worry about religious connotations?<P>To me and probably 98 percent of everyone, that phrase "I am thirsty" has nothing to do with religion in any way. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>The "connotations" that Smaug would be referring to would be, of course, Jesus's crucification. While it certainly bears palpable connotations, I cannot conceive of Peter Jackson leaving it out for that reason, as most main-stream audiences would fail to draw a connection between this statement and the plight of Jesus Christ. I think it would be more likely that Peter Jackson would leave it out simply because he overlooked it as an unimportant piece of dialogue.<P>For myself, I would like to see the quote in the movie. It has such depth; an obvious request in the form of a simple statement, but with far more complex meaning. For me, when I read it, I felt as if I were inside of Frodo, parched of mind and lip alike, and it held in those three words the essence of his struggle to overcome to the power of the Ring and fulfill the Quest.<P>Good thread, Smaug, although it would have been nice to have heard your explanation of the quote as it fit in with the book (i.e. what the scene was, what your feelings of the quote were, etc.) Enjoy being dead!

[Lord of Angmar]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Catholicism & Christianity<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Estel, Catholicism is a branch of Christianity, not a separate religion.<p>[ September 10, 2003: Message edited by: Lord of Angmar ]

[Bêthberry]

Intriguing extrapolations there, Thena. I would wager, however, that PJ's Gandalf at Helm's Deep owes something to Moses leading his people to the promised land. True, we have a horse without the chariot, but, correct me if I am not mistaken, was there not a reference to the Golden Calf at the Golden Hall?

[Thenamir]

I think you've entirely missed my point, Lord of Angmar. Consider, both the Bible and PJ's LOTR movie have the following similarities:<P><UL TYPE=SQUARE><P><LI>They both mention water<BR><LI>They both deal with people<BR><LI>In both cases, some people are evil, and some are good<BR><LI>Both of them have references to wheeled carts or vehicles<BR><LI>Both mention towers (a dead giveaway if you ask me)<BR><LI>Both use words as a form of communication<BR><LI>Both works have supernatural acts, on both the evil and the good sides.<LI>And finally, perhaps most tellingly, the good guys win in both cases!<BR></UL><P>I think I've made my case.<P>

[Arwen Eruantale]

Mae Govannen, Smaug! Enjoy being dead! <BR>A good question, and a great quote. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>To tough to call.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Actually I believe Tolkien converted to Christianity.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Exactly what I thought, Only Real Estel, only you had already said it. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Catholicism is a branch of Christianity, not a separate religion.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>No offense, but I do not believe so, Lord of Angmar; anyhow lets not get into that. <p>[ September 10, 2003: Message edited by: Arwen Eruantale ]

[The Only Real Estel]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Estel, Catholicism is a branch of Christianity, not a separate religion.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I agree with Arwen Eruantale on this one. There are to many extactly opposite beliefs of these two groups to lump them together. Anyway, sorry if I'm off topic.

[Lord of Angmar]

This is getting very far off-topic, Estel, but I feel the need to clear up my point of view.<P>I define Christianity as the belief in Jesus Christ as the Savior and as the Son of God. In this case Catholicism fits the bill. Furthermore, Catholicism is one of the original forms of Christianity. What I think perhaps you and Amarie mean is that Catholicism can be considered a separate religion from Protestant or Non-Denominatinal Christianity based on its practices. Catholicism, however, is clearly, unarguably and 100% a form of Christianity, not a separate religion. I think you are taking Christianity to mean Protestant Christianity in particular, in which case you would have a point about them being very different.<P>Sorry for the gigantic digression, but it was nagging me that you took Christianity to mean Protestant Christianity when in fact Catholic Christianity precedes Protestant in it's roots. I would like to say on a more Tolkien-related note that while certain aspects of Tolkien's books resemble aspects of Christianity, it is not intentionally allegorical and any Christian connotations on the phrase "I am thirsty," can be overlooked as coincidental.<P>Cheers!<BR>-Angmar

[Mithadan]

Stay on topic, please.

[Meneltarmacil]

Uhhhh, when exactly was it that Frodo said that he was thirsty? I've looked all over my book and I can't find it anywhere.

[Evisse the Blue]

In the 'Mount Doom' chapter: <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> At the last halt, he sank down and said "I am thirsy, Sam', and did not speak again.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Interesting point, I did not think before of this line having religious connotations, but now that you mentioned it, it does.<BR>However, if I were to choose a line from volume 3 that I would like to make it to the movie unchanged I'd go with the Eowyn -Faramir conversation and especially Eowyn's line: "I will be a healer and love all things that grow and are not barren." I love it - especially in that context. <P>Well- what can I say, we'll have to wait and see. So far, I had a bit of luck with my favourite lines, they made it in (relatively) unchanged. <BR>I may stray a little off topic here - but Sam's speech at the end pf TTT actually reflects his thoughts from ROTK when he sees that star shine on the sky through the darkness of Mordor. But - I don't know why they felt the need to cut my favourite line: "In the end the Shadow is only a passing thing, <BR><B>there is light and beauty forever beyond its reach</B>. Don't tell me they thought it was to dense! <p>[ September 10, 2003: Message edited by: Evisse the Blue ]

Thanks for the welcomes & the replies everyone - an interesting discussion has unravelled.. <P>Hey, yeah, what's doing with "recently deceased?" It's somewhat disconcerting to have that there.. (moderators?) can this be removed (please?) not a nice thought..<P>Catholicism (the Roman Catholic religion) is a denomination of Christianity, the aforesaid being the oldest organised form which (while the nuances are many) can in the most simplest way, be characterised by the divine reverence to the Pope in Rome, whilst all other denominations of Christianity do not recognise this position or his authority..<P>Tolkien was Baptised Catholic at a very young age so I think the word "converted" is a little misleading in that respect.. I think you could however, use that terminology for his mother<P>In terms of Christian symbolism in PJ's movies, well, that would be a great thread to discuss here.. It could be argued that there have been moments throughout the first two instalments which might have contained "Biblical" references, or at least have that "feel" about them.. Then again, there might not be.. <P>''The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision... the religious element is absorbed into the story and symbolism.'' J.R.R. Tolkien letters<P>This statement alone (though there are others) indicates it clearly pervaded his thought process - but despite this, he was able to avoid literal translations of his beliefs into the work (in another words, allegory) - and that, has to be lauded...<P>However it doesn't properly explain the Frodo quote because these influences are weaved subtly throughout the story and (as you rightly point out) there's no explicit mention of Religion in the mythology of Middle-Earth whatsoever.. Not only is the quote itself a literal translation from the New Testament, but also the mood and the contextual part of the story in which it is written bears resemblance to the desperation at the Cross.. I guess we can put it down to Tolkien's genius, a work bereft of uncouth author autonomy that enables the story to be enjoyed and interpreted at all levels.. If you're not all that privy to Christianity and its teachings, the Lord of the Rings will not be seen as a "fundamentally Catholic" work, which in turn facilitates such readers to still appreciate the fundamental human themes running through the book that are pertinent for everyone, atheist, agnostic, religious... Was this a motivation of commercial reality - to widen his audience? A cynic might think so.. But I reckon rather it was a chance for him to display his heightened ability to use imaginative symbolism through his romantic prose to meander a theme into the work while at the same time looking to entertain.. But whether or not a reader got what he was hinting at, didn't really matter to him (in my opinion).. "The splintered light" <P>Thankfully though, The Lord of the Rings is not an authoritative text on any particular dogma and tries instead to extract personal reader interpretation (which is the essential reason why it is a timeless piece of literature and why the movies will prove equally resilient).. For that reason too, the book has enamoured itself to me.. <P>Despite the obvious need for the movies to remain (or establish) a secular feel about them, I sometimes feel certain underlying threads of Biblical nuances in Peter Jackson's films.. I think that would be a great discussion point.. Have people seen any hints of such references in the first two instalments? Would that be something that Peter, Phillipa and Fran would have considered (even at a very minor level) ? I think (and I'll list some possible examples later) there is anecdotal evidence to suggest there might be some overtones in this regard.. However, one cannot discount the possibility that any such inferences of symbolism in the movies could have been accidental, either..

[Estelyn Telcontar]

<B>smaug</B>, you have indeed started quite a discussion! Since you're interested in the religious references in the book, I recommend that you go to the Books forum, click on "search" (upper right corner of the page) and enter "religion", "Christianity" or "Bible" in the box. There have been many discussions on this topic. (Unfortunately, some had to be closed because members took the arguments personally or began insulting others whose opinions differed. We expect people to stay polite and respectful of others, even when they disagree.)<P>Personally, I think that any religious connotations the movie might have can be credited to the book; I doubt that Peter Jackson consciously considered those aspects, and whatever made it to the film did so because it belongs to the story. I certainly did not think of comparing Frodo's thirst to that of Christ on the cross; to me, his is a simple statement of a human need which we all say at some time! <P>In answer to your question about your "newly deceased" status, please check out the <A HREF="http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=001152" TARGET=_blank>Forum FAQ</A> thread and the <A HREF="http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=001174" TARGET=_blank>Forum Policies</A> thread, both at the top of the Novices and Newcomers forum. They will answer that question and many others as well as giving you information about forum posting.

[The Only Real Estel]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Hey, yeah, what's doing with "recently deceased?" It's somewhat disconcerting to have that there.. (moderators?) can this be removed (please?) not a nice thought..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> One day you'll look back on your post, smaug_the_magnificent, & smile. Trust me you will .

[Arwen Eruantale]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Trust me you will<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>*laughs* He's right.

[Evisse the Blue]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>quote:<BR>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>Hey, yeah, what's doing with "recently deceased?" It's somewhat disconcerting to have that there.. (moderators?) can this be removed (please?) not a nice thought..<BR>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<P>One day you'll look back on your post, smaug_the_magnificent, & smile. Trust me you will <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Ahahahaha! Sorry - couldn't help myself; the funniest bit I saw in a good while.<BR>Erm, (attempting to stay on topic) so, I was re-reading that chapter and realized that the 'I am thirsty' line is part of a larger 'the search for water theme'. I will be glad if they present it as such in the movie so as to effectively show the hardships they endured. I found that in TTT those hardships were hardly even hinted at. Anyone agree?