the origin of hobbits

[Susan Delgado]

Illuvitar created Elves, Men, and Ents, Aule created the Dwarves, Orcs were (supposedly) corrupted Elves, Goblins degenerated Orcs (my own theory), and the Dragons were created by Morgoth. Those are, I think, all the sentient races of Middle Earth, along with their origins, except the Hobbits. My question is, where did the Hobbits come from; who created them? I'm certain they didn't simply appear.

[ May 10, 2002: Message edited by: Susan Delgado ]

[JenFramp]

I'm not quite sure if Tolkien actually ever says..I think he sort of did that on purpose..it leaves them to be a mysterious and wonderful race that is set in their ways yet always suprises

[Niere-Teleliniel]

Good question Susan! I searched a bit and found this:

JRRT tells us this in his "Letters" p. 158 footnote which I paraphrase for brevity:
The Hobbits are meant to be a branch of the human race, not dwarves or elves. Hence the two kinds can live together as they do in Bree, calling themselves the Big Folk and the Little Folk. They have no non-human "powers" but are more in touch with nature such as the soil, plants, and animals. Abnormally for humans, they are free from ambition or the greed for wealth. They are small, half human stature and dwindling with the passing of years. The size is partly to exhibit the pettiness of plain, unimaginative, parochial man. The other reason is to show, in creatures of very small physical power, the amazing and unexpected heroism of ordinary men "at a pinch".

Regarding the origin of hobbits, The Tolkien Companion refers you to The Red Book of Westmarch, which I unfortunately do not own a copy of.

[JenFramp]

Wow! thats really interesting. Thanks for the quote, I think it makes Hobbits more facinating..

[Child of the 7th Age]

The prologue of the LOTR gives the most information on hobbit origins. These origins are lost in the mists of time, since hobbits did not record them and Elves did not pay much attention to other races. At one point, hobbit ancestors lived in the Vales of Anduin. Then numbers of them moved west.

Most interesting to me is that each branch of the hobbits seems to have close ties to another race of Middle-earth, or , in the case of the Fallohides, actually have some physical resemblence to that other race. The Harfoots, that came to be the dominent group of Hobbits, initially had much to do with Dwarves. They were browner and shorter. (I think Sam is Harfoot.) They moved westward earliest. Not surprisingly, with the Dwarf influence, they were the ones who came to live in tunnels and holes. The Stoors mixed more with men; they came west later. They were the ones who liked boats, swimming, etc. since they lived by the river a long time. This was Smeagol's ancestry. The most intriguing to me were the Fallohides who were most like the Elves. They loved forests, were taller and slimmer, more adventurous, fairer of skin and hair, loved language and song, and in ancient times practiced hunting rather than agriculture.

The Fallohides provided many of the Hobbit leaders. Merry, Pippen, and Frodo all had Fallohide blood. I often wonder if some wandering Avari elf and some ancient hobbit ancestor came together at least once to leave some special traits and genes for the Fallohides! We know Hobbit origin goes back before the Third Age.

No way to prove this. But it would go far towards explaining why Faramir can say that Frodo looks elvish, and why Frodo is an Elf-friend and has visions of Elvenhome, or why Merrygold sees the light of an elf-lover in his eyes, or why he comments on his yearning for the sound of the Sea while in Rivendell. It would also place in context the last two lines of Galadriel's song to the departing Fellowship where she says "may you find Valinor". Tolkien explicitly says in The Road Goes Ever On that these two lines are addressed specifically to Frodo. (I was surprsed to read that.)

It could also be another reason for Sam's close emotional attachment to Frodo. Perhaps,like Faramir, he can sense some ancient throwback genes or traits. (You know how Sam likes Elves.) Again, this is wild speculation. Maybe Frodo just likes Elves and Elvenhome, and there's no genetic component. That's certainly the case, for example, with Sam who has no Fallohide blood. And all the references to the Sea and the West could simply be preparing Frodo and us for the fact that he will have to go there for healing after the quest. But, then again, you never know.......

sharon, the 7th age hobbit.
[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ May 10, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[ May 10, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[Samwise]

I think Sam is Harfoot

Hm. Now that's interestin'. 'Twould explain why I'm s' brown, I guess, now wouldn't it? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

"I have indeed!" said Sam. "And I reckon there's Elves and there's Elves. They're all Elvish enough, but they're not all the same. Now these folk aren't wanderers or homeless, and seem a bit nearer to the likes of us: they seem to belong here, more even than Hobbits do in the Shire. Whether they've made the land, or the land's made them, it's hard to say, if you take my meaning."

[Frodo Baggins]

Next you you, Sam. I look white. next to me, you are very brown. I have Fallohide in me.

[Samwise]

Ah. Well, Mister Frodo, I'm still glad that we get along so well. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Sam sat tapping the hilt of his sword as if he were counting on his fingers. "It's very strange," he murmured. "The moon's the same in the Shire and in Wilderland, or it ought to be. But either it's out of it's running or I'm all wrong in my reckoning. "

[Child of the 7th Age]

Samwise and Frodo--You both look splendid to me!

Hey, Frodo Baggins, sorry for the incident yesterday pushing ahead of you in line to get mushrooms. So sorry. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] I was hungry.

Now, Frodo, not to be nosey or anything, but do you have an Elf ancestor somewhere back there on the Fallohide family tree?

snoopy 7th age hobbit

[Samwise]

Thank you much. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Sam eased the pack on his shoulders, and went over anxiously in his mind all the things which were stowed in it: his chief treasure, his cooking gear; and the little box of salt that he always carried and refilled when he could; woolen hose; linen; various small belongings of his master's that Frodo had forgotten and Sam had stowed to bring them all out in triumph when they were called for. He went through them all.

[Aosama, the Wandering Star]

I guess I like not knowing, just because it gives them that air of mystery, like they can't just be explained away. Hobbits are so fascinating!

[Tarthang]

If I remember correctly, JRRT wrote in The Hobbit that the Took's had fairy blood in them, accounting for the Tooks long life spans and sense of adventure. Nowhere else do I recall JRRT mentioning fairies of any kind. So, if faeries are taken to represent elves, some of the Hobbittish closeness with nature is explained.
Keep in mind, JRRT wrote the Hobbit based of of bedtime stories for his children and LOTR was written as a follow up to the Hobbit after the publishers requested a sequel.
It's just speculation on my part, but had JRRT written the Hobbit to fit in with the materials from the Silm from the start, then the the Took blood may have been written as being part elvish instead of fairy.

[Nufaciel]

Actually, this is what he said in the Hobbit:

It was often said (in other families) that long ago one of the Took ancestors must have taken a fairy wife. That is, of course, absurd, but certainly there was still something not entirely hobbitlike about them,and once in a while members of the Took-clan would go and have adventures.

If you look in Fellowship, you'll see that the Tooks are of the Fallohide branch of the Hobbits, who are bolder and more adventurous than the others.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Tarthang & Nufacial -- Yes, I remember this reference from the early pages of the Hobbit, and I think, without too much of a stretch, the "fairy" could be interpreted as an "elf". It's the sort of thing Hobbit neighbors might say who could sense something different, but didn't have any knowledge about who the Elves actually were. Could this ancestor be a wood elf descended from one of the Avari? (wild guessing)

When Tolkien initially wrote the Hobbit, it was kind of a child's "fairy tale". The Lord of the Rings was presented more as "legend", and the Silm as "myth". So it isn't surprising that an elf might get transformed into a child's "fairy" in that context.

Out of curiosity, I checked the Annotated Hobbit to see if this reference about a "fairy" marriage was in the original 1937 draft or was added later. It's quite interesting because the fairy reference was there in 1937, but he changed the wording slightly in 1966.

1937--"It had always been said long ago one or other of the Tooks had married into a fairy family (the less friendly said a goblin family); certainly there was something not entirely hobbitlike about them."

1966A -It was often said (in other families) that long ago one of the Took ancestors must have taken a fairy wife. That was, of course, absurd, but certainly there was something not entirely hobbitlike about them."

It's interesting that the earliest reference was to "fairy" and "goblin" which in the context of the later writings could be interpreted as fairy and orc. I am tempted to think Tolkien removed goblin because of the extremely negative depiction of orcs which evolved in the LOTR, much more bleak than the goblins depicted in the early pages of the Hobbit. But, despite this revision, he did leave in the fairy reference.

Nufacial -- I wanted to say how much I have enjoyed your ideas, knowledge and postings on many threads, and it's nice to see that there is someone in Houston who has this interest.

sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

I think it was just plain and simple evolution. Due to the environments of the different clans, certain traits were more beneficial to life there. And since depending on where they lived, they came into contact with elves, dwarves and pretty early on the ancestors of the Rohirrim, they learned from them. You can't tell me if you lived your whole life in an elven sort of way, you wouldn't look good, and so on. Though any thing (the fairy wife) is possible in between.

[Lhunbelethiel]

Here's another question about hobbits for you.... Do the lady hobbits have hairy feet as well?? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Niere-Teleliniel]

...their feet had tough leathery soles and were clad in a thick curling hair... (FOTR, pg 20)

It only says "Their" not "The men's," so I guessing yes. (Perhaps they shaved?)

[ May 12, 2002: Message edited by: Niere-Teleliniel ]

[Susan Delgado]

Wow, thanks for all the feedback. I haven't read the Hobbit in a very long time, So I guess I'd forgotten the descriptions of the hobbits. You guys are all so thoughtful and insightful...

[Baran]

Imagine female hobbits waxing their feets [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Thorin Oakenshield]

ummmmm .........no

[Westerly Wizard]

That "fairy" in the Hobbit might mean elf is further evidenced by Tolkien's use of the word fairy as a synonym for elf throughout his early writings of the mythos (cf. Book of Lost Tales).

It is also interesting that the general definition of fairy would include something like a goblin (my reference being to the 1937 text).

[burrahobbit]

No.

The Hobbit isn't canon. It is stuff that Bilbo made up to make things sound more interesting.

[The Saucepan Man]

That "fairy" in the Hobbit might mean elf is further evidenced by Tolkien's use of the word fairy as a synonym for elf throughout his early writings of the mythos

"Faerie" is also the word used by Bilbo in the Hobbit to describe the Western Land where the Elves go to, ie Valinor.

The Hobbit isn't canon. It is stuff that Bilbo made up to make things sound more interesting.

I prefer to think of it as canon with Bilbo's "spin". [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Child of the 7th Age]

Remembers her post from long ago that started the discussion in this particular direction.....

Saucepan Man,

I agree. Although culture may account for some of the proclivities of the Fallohides, there are points of physical resemblance that go beyond that.

I don't think one can say that the Fallohides got their fair hair and skin or their taller, slimmer build merely by coming into contact with Elves as neighbors. There's just too much coincidence there. Frodo's own physical appearance and his personality seem to suggest something more.

sharon

[ May 15, 2003: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[Yavanna228]

Concerning the origin of hobbits, I suppose my romantic nature comes through in my opinions. I personally like to think of the hobbit race as preservers of innocence and the joy of the earth. The fact that we cannot definitely determine the origin of these wonderful beings makes them all the more charming. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
Peace

[burrahobbit]

Concerning the origin of hobbits, I suppose my romantic nature comes through in my opinions. I personally like to think of the hobbit race as preservers of innocence and the joy of the earth. The fact that we cannot definitely determine the origin of these wonderful beings makes them all the more charming.

There's nothing more than that.

[mark12_30]

Shameless promotion: check out "The Fairy Wife" in BD fanfic. Sharon, please note the new preface. You, Lindil and Nar are mentioned in it. Do you remember the original thread where you brought up this idea (silvan elf ancestor?) I don't remember which thread it was, and search didn't get it for me.

[Meneltarmacil]

To me, Hobbits seem like a combination of Elves, Dwarves, and Men.
MEN: Their ability to adapt to a number of different situations quickly, their will to survive
DWARVES: Their short stature and the fact that they live in holes
ELVES: Not as apparent as the others, but Bilbo and Frodo seem to show some elven traits.

So what I think happened (and this is just my opinion) is that somewhere, possibly in the Far East (Avari Elves, Men of Hildorien, there may have been some dwarves in the Orocarni), all three races intermarried and Hobbits were the result after many generations.

Oh, and as to my idea above that there were dwarves in the Orocarni, the Silmarillion says that Aule put them in "far sundered places" and gives no real specifics other than Moria, so it is possible.

[Sharkû]

Unfortunately, your opinion contradicts Tolkien's.
For what it's worth, we don't even know whether Dwarves could reproduce with the Children.

[Meneltarmacil]

Unfortunately, your opinion contradicts Tolkien's.

Well, it made a good story anyway. But could you elaborate as to how it contradicts what Tolkien wrote? (i.e. give a quote from one of those mysterious "letters") It's not that I don't believe you when you say that, I'm simply curious.

[Samwise]

Wow. Really interesting stuff. I'm just enjoying reading this thread, never mind commenting.

I'm not quite sure if Tolkien actually ever says..I think he sort of did that on purpose..it leaves them to be a mysterious and wonderful race that is set in their ways yet always suprises

My favorite "theory" thus far...

[Sharkû]

Look up. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Meneltarmacil]

I did read the other thread, but even though Tolkien said they were a branch of the race of Men, still some of them (Bilbo, Frodo, and the Fallohides and their descendants in general) seem to share too much in common with the Elves to be pure coincidence... There may have been some Elven blood in their clan somewhere along the line.

[ August 16, 2003: Message edited by: Meneltarmacil ]

[burrahobbit]

Aside from being shiny, what?

[Meneltarmacil]

Aside from being shiny, what?

That is discussed above on this very thread, if you want to know.

[Samwise]

Look up

Lost, as per usual... [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img]

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

There may have been some Elven blood in their clan somewhere along the line.

Highly, highly unlikely. Not that I really see anything that Hobbits had in common with the Elves anyway; their society was certainly very much a human one, and down to earth.

As for the Hobbits you mentioned, they did not either. Frodo -- and Bilbo -- were simply different, very intelligent Hobbits that studied Elves, were in contact with them and loved them. In the Took family -- Isengrim etc -- the odd unusual person did crop up, but they were wanderers and travellers rather than Elf-like people, and very much still Hobbits, from what I can gather -- which, as I say above, is a distinctly different state to the Elvish one.

[burrahobbit]

That is discussed above on this very thread, if you want to know.

Give us a recap.

Samwise, he is pointing at the Tolkien quote in the third post of this thread.

[Dancing_Hobbit]

Since the origional discussion seems to have petered out and I was wondering, I'll try sending the thread in a new direction.

Where did the word Hobbit come from? Where did Tolkien get the idea? Was it a careless spelling error, or a slip of the toungue that he liked and used? Nothing springs from the imagination without some sort of stimulus, even if we are unaware of what that stumulus was. So, do we know anything about where Tolkien got the idea for the term Hobbit?

[Ainaserkewen]

Oh shout...I know this one. I once read an elaborately illustrated guide book to the Hobbit(back when I just looked at the pictures, darn). With each character description, they had the "origins" of everybody's name and race. Tolkien listed long lines of words that changed and evolved to what they are today. A parallel would be latin to english. A lot of latin words evolved to english words we use now. I can't for the life of me remember the list for the word Hobbit, but at some point, Gollum was called a Hobgoblin and they showed the relations between the words Hobbit and Goblin. I do know though, that the word Hobbit, in the actual story, has something to do with "Hobytla" which is what the Rohirrim called Merry and Pippin. I shall try my best to relocate the book for you. For the real origin of the word, Tolkien might have just made it up, and lead up to it with his own invented research. Someone correct me if I'm wrong on this.

On an earlier note on the Fallowhides looking and acting so much like the elves that lived with them, that there was suspicion of racial mixing. I have my doubts about that theory, nomatter how many fanfics I read on the subject. I still think that if the Fallowhides lived and worked with the elves, they would develope some of their cultural traits. And with the taller, slimmer, paler physical traits, I think it would have to do with where they lived and what they ate. If a race is subjected to such finery for multiple generations(and we're talking alot) they would adapt and evolve, just like the Hartfoots and the Stoors. But then they all mixed back together and some strans can still be seen. Like when different human cultures mix, there is some remnance of the two cultures. Like me, I was born here in Canada. My direct disendants are from Holland and England, but I have red hair. It's odd because both my sister and I are the only red heads in our surviving family. But along the line one of my great grandmothers was Irish...thus, I got my red hair from her. I think that Hobbits would be the same way.