Theoden's Exorcism

[Lord of Angmar]

What does everyone think of Peter Jackson's version of Theoden's cleansing in Meduseld by Gandalf? First of all, Theoden was described as old and bent, but never as vividly and grotesquely as was portrayed in the movies. Second of all, it was never made obvious or apparent that Theoden was directly occupied by the spirit of Saruman. I had been under the impression that he lay under a 'spell' or 'curse', not that his mind was actually inhabited and controlled by the mind of Saruman. These are just a few thoughts. I am <I>not</I> griping about Peter Jackson's rendition (although you may feel free to ). I am merely wondering if you thought the movie version to be a faithful rendition and if it was how you had initially envisioned it.<P>Cheers!<BR>-Angmar<p>[ August 23, 2003: Message edited by: Lord of Angmar ]

[Horse-Maiden of the Shire]

Basically, yes. I thought that it was a good representation (although when I read the title of this thread I was thinking about RotK and was completely baffled) and that PJ actually did a pretty good job on it. I liked it when it showed Theoden coming back to "life", because it just looked really...real.

[Thalionmar]

I thought it was pretty well done but I definately agree with you about the spirit of Saruman being involved directly with Theodens condition.<P>I thought the visual representation was good also, it was just the involvement of Saruman directly that brought the scene down.<p>[ August 24, 2003: Message edited by: Thalionmar ]

[Meela]

I thought it was very good, especially the way Saruman's face is seen in Theoden's as he falls backwards.

[Sauron 666]

I thought it was cheesy myself but I guess i understand the need to simply things for the petty medicore majority who cna't think for themselves. <P>I've read LOTR 3 times and one part which continually gives me trouble is the rejuvination of Theoden. I understand that Wormtongue poisoned him with bad advice and, well, poison. But I've never understood how Gandalf comes to rejuvinate and motivate him out of his slumber. Maybe Gandalf is the richard simmons of ME or something (if that isn't a scary thought, I don't know what is)

[Lord of Angmar]

The power of Gandalf's Elven Ring is the power of kindling, or, in essence, rejuvination of the mind and body as pertaining to a crisis. In this case, the crisis was the downfall of Rohan and Sauron's war on Middle Earth, and the powers imbued in Narya kindled the heart and body of Theoden from its poisoned slumber.

[The Only Real Estel]

I didn't like it all that well, but it's not something that I'm going to die over.

[lore_master]

sauron666, you dont have to insulnt people who dont think the way you think. <P>myself, i rather liked the way that P.J. portrayed it, i think he did a good job (on that part at least)<BR>(i am rather put of by him leaving out tom though)<P>and please dont insult Gandalf by comparing him with richard simmins)

[TheSquireof Aragorn]

I did not like how Gandalf apeared to be directly battling with Saruman through spells, but i liked how Theoden became more youthful in appearence it was very subtle.

[Liriodendron]

Though it didn't follow the book, it's one of my favorite parts of the movie TTT. I found it rather entertaining, and it made Theoden look good (it really wasn't his fault, it was "magic" ) For the movie, I liked it. It doesn't make sense that Aragorn lets Wormtongue go though. To simple. <p>[ August 24, 2003: Message edited by: Liriodendron ]

[Lord of Angmar]

In the movie, Aragorn's seeming pity for Wormtongue proves to be a near catastrophe, as Wormtongue is able to rendezvous with his master and thus betray the secret weakness of Helm's Deep to him.

[Liriodendron]

Course, the palantir bit will make it right, but it just seems rather out of character for the battle hardened killing machine of Helm's Deep (Aragorn) to plead for mercy for this creep! I would have liked it better if Theoden had just kicked him out, sending him on his way (in disgust) or something. As it is...It makes Aragorn look "wrong". <p>[ August 24, 2003: Message edited by: Liriodendron ]

[HCIsland]

I found it entertaining. I particularly liked the quick cut between Theoden and Saruman being thrown back. Very well done with minimal visual effects. It was definately more simple and visually dramatic, but that doesn't necessarily make it bad.<P>What I particularly liked about it was that Theoden came across as a stronger character than in the book. This is reinforced later when Theoden makes the decision to go to Helm's Deep rather than just following Gandalf's council. In the book, I never really got to like Theoden until he gets to Orthanc. In the movie I liked him right away.<P>H.C.

[The Only Real Estel]

Theoden nearly killing Wormtuonge was, in my opinion, the worst thing of all of the Exorsim.

[mollecon]

I agree with what seems to be the marjority here. Namely, that in the books Theoden isn't <I>possesed</I> by Saruman the way he is in the movie - but it was an OK move for PJ to portray it that way. It made it possible to leave out explanations (always difficult to have in movies) & made it easier for the marjority of the audience (non Tolkien knowers) to follow the story.<P>The essence is that Saruman somehow manipulates Theoden into being passive when Saruman tries to overtake Rohan - the fact that that manipulation is shown a bit differently from book to movie is not that big a deal IMO.

[HCIsland]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Theoden nearly killing Wormtuonge was, in my opinion, the worst thing of all of the Exorsim. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I agree here. It would have been fun to have something closer to the book with Theoden giving Wormtongue the choice between exile and riding to war. I also didn't like the way Aragorn physically held back Theoden. It seemed a very forward thing to do to a king in front of his men.<P>H.C.

[The Only Real Estel]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I agree here. It would have been fun to have something closer to the book with Theoden giving Wormtongue the choice between exile and riding to war. I also didn't like the way Aragorn physically held back Theoden. It seemed a very forward thing to do to a king in front of his men.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Precisely. I thought in that respect it was rather unrealistic. Theoden would've matched up better with his less rash self-impossed PJ image (only deciding to go to war after much urging), if he would've acted more wisely instead of nearly killing Wormtounge, rather rashly. If it makes any amount of sense...

Actually (This is directed to "The Only Real Estel") IMO the worst part of the exorcism was pretty much the entire way that it was presented. Sticking to the book, or at least mostly to the book, would have been a whole lot better. Although I do have to admit that it did make Saruman appear to be even more evil and have even more power that people had previously thought, so that might have been one of the things the were hoping to accomplish. Maybe PJ wanted to get across the idea that although Saruman was greater, now Gandalf was #1. That's my idea.<p>[ August 25, 2003: Message edited by: Glamdring ]

[The Only Real Estel]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Sticking to the book, or at least mostly to the book, would have been a whole lot better.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I firmly agree with that. But I will say that deviating to that was much better than diviating to *cough cough-Faramir-cough cough. So I <I>can</I> live with the change if I must, it was Theoden nearly killing Wormtounge that got me most.

[Lord of Angmar]

In the book, Eomer nearly slew Wormtongue, but Gandalf stayed his hand. In the movie, Theoden nearly slew Wormtongue and Gandalf stopped him. I found Eomer's banishment to be an exciting and unexpected twist to the story.

[The Only Real Estel]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Theoden nearly slew Wormtongue and Gandalf stopped him.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Actually Aragorn stopped him. you can't really make the comparision between those two, because in the movies Theoden was already going through the motions of killing Wormy & Aragorn had to grab his arm, where as in the books it was more Eomer remarking that he should kill him than actual swinging a sword at him. Or at least that's what I recall...

[Lord of Angmar]

My mistake, I meant to say that Aragorn stayed him in the movie.<P>In the book, Eomer does make a threat and an aggressive move, but Gandalf holds him back. I do not find anything wrong really with the movie version, albeit the scene was not the same as in the book.

[The Saucepan Man]

I agree with those that say that the scene works very well on screen. And the transformation of Theoden from old dotard to his true self is visually impressive.<P>But, if Theoden was "posessed" by Saruman, what was the point in him having Wormtongue in Theoden's court? In the Book, it was Wormtongue, as Saruman's agent, who counselled Theoden into a state of apathy. Having him "magically" under Saruman's influence in my view detracts from Wormtongue's role.<P>One other gripe with this scene. It strikes me as rather odd that more members of Theoden's court did not attempt to prevent what would seem to them to be an attack by Gandalf upon their King. Despite being weaponless, Aragorn and co seem to deal with Theoden's bodyguard rather easily.

[Kaiserin]

I didn't quite appreciate the way that scene was done, but I won't get into a fit over it . I was almost smirking through that scene in the cinema, half-smiling because I felt like laughing. It reminded me of a Catholic priest yelling, "Demons, out!". <P>It seems to me that it was a little bit overdone, but I admit you guys are right, it <I>does</I> look good on screen, it <I>does</I> emphasize Saruman's power, and Theoden <I>does</I> appear a stronger character than the way he is described in the books.<p>[ August 26, 2003: Message edited by: Kaiserin ]

[HCIsland]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> But, if Theoden was "posessed" by Saruman, what was the point in him having Wormtongue in Theoden's court? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I never got the impression that Saruman was in Theoden's head 24/7. In fact, I think a full possession of Theoden only occured once Saruman sensed what Gandalf was doing and rose to the defence.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> One other gripe with this scene. It strikes me as rather odd that more members of Theoden's court did not attempt to prevent what would seem to them to be an attack by Gandalf upon their King. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I think most of Theoden's men had no love for Wormtongue and always sensed that something was wrong. Certainly Hama did and hence let Gandalf in with his staff against Wormtongue's orders.<P>The scene is far from perfect. I certainly would have liked to have seen much better dialogue between Gandalf and the possessed Theoden, but I think doing it as written in the book would have been confusing. The animated film is much closer to the book here and Theoden comes across as a doddering twit.<P>H.C.

[Liriodendron]

Wormtoungue was there to "direct" Theoden, I suppose. Aragorn and the boy's Kung Fu style wipe out was part of the VERY "entertaining" bit for me! I agree with the person who mentioned how odd it was for Aragorn to step up like that and tell the king what to do in his own court (not kill Grima) it was almost scary, I still don't understand why Theoden had to try to kill him. The "choice" from the book adds so much depth!

[mollecon]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>It strikes me as rather odd that more members of Theoden's court did not attempt to prevent what would seem to them to be an attack by Gandalf upon their King. Despite being weaponless, Aragorn and co seem to deal with Theoden's bodyguard rather easily.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>This already have been explained by HCIsland - but a few more comments: It's pretty obvious in the scene that the people who <I>do</I> try to stop Gandalf aren't really Theodens lifeguard - more like Wormtongue's allies at the court. And when Hama lets Gandalf in with the staff, it's pretty obvious that he's well aware that he's ignoring Wormtongue's orders - he's attitude seems to be saying "Well, things can't get any worse than they already are...". And he stops the real lifeguards from interfering.

[HCIsland]

I watched the scene again today and there's even a shot of Hama holding back one of his men during the scuffle.<P>H.C.

[The Saucepan Man]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I never got the impression that Saruman was in Theoden's head 24/7. In fact, I think a full possession of Theoden only occured once Saruman sensed what Gandalf was doing and rose to the defence. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It seems to me that Saruman must originally have been responsible for Theoden's enfeebled state because the transformation is almost instananeous when Gandalf breaks the "spell". Yes, I can see that Wormtongue's role in the film was to exert influence over Theoden on a day-to-day basis. But in the book, Theoden's apathy was wholly the result of Wormtongue's poison. The film detracts from his role in this regard.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I watched the scene again today and there's even a shot of Hama holding back one of his men during the scuffle. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, I noticed that. I think that it is Gamling that he holds back. This, together with Hama letting Gandalf enter with his staff do show that he, at least, mistrusts Wormtongue and is hopeful that something will be done to bring his King back.<P>But it still does not sit quite right with me that, right there in the King's chamber, so little resistance is shown by the King's guards when Gandalf makes an aggressive move towards him. However much they might have mistrusted Wormtongue or been concerned over their King's state of mind, their first instinct would surely have been to protect him against a clear threat to him from an outsider. And earlier in the film, they had been quite prepared to forcibly expel Eomer from the court on Wormtongue's orders. <P>For me, the whole scene just works so much better as it is portrayed in the book with Gandalf breaking Wormtongue's hold over Theoden through the force of his words. Less cinematographical perhaps, but far more feasible.

[Lord of Angmar]

I agree with many of your points, Saucepan. The scene worked for a mass audience but had a few noticeable flaws. In the book, that was one of my favorite scenes. In the movie, it suffices only as a plot advancer and Theoden seemed too gruesome.<P>I have not seen the movie for awhile, but does anyone else remember the part where Hama greets Aragorn, Gandalf, Gimli and Legolas? He says that they can not bring in their weapons to Meduseld, and then says that it is a command from--pausing dramatically and squinting his eyes--Grima Wormtongue. That part struck me as quite ludicrous. Whoever the actor was, he seemed to be playing out some sort of comedic sketch, reminiscent of a Monty Python movie. Perhaps my memory on this is faded, as I have not seen the movie since a week after its release, but that part came off as a particularly unbelievable and even laughable bit of acting. (I will note however that the actor who said it played the rest of his limited role well.)<p>[ August 26, 2003: Message edited by: Lord of Angmar ]

[The Only Real Estel]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>But it still does not sit quite right with me that, right there in the King's chamber, so little resistance is shown by the King's guards when Gandalf makes an aggressive move towards him. However much they might have mistrusted Wormtongue or been concerned over their King's state of mind, their first instinct would surely have been to protect him against a clear threat to him from an outsider. And earlier in the film, they had been quite prepared to forcibly expel Eomer from the court on Wormtongue's orders. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Quite right. In fact, the only people that actually attack the company don't seem to be an any armour (I could be wrong), & almost come across as a personal band of cronies of Wormtounge's...strange but that's the way it seemed to me. I would also think that Theoden's own guards would try to stop Ganadlf (as you said SMan), especially after it became clear that he was in some pain or discomfort.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>For me, the whole scene just works so much better as it is portrayed in the book with Gandalf breaking Wormtongue's hold over Theoden through the force of his words. Less cinematographical perhaps, but far more feasible.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Ditto.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> He says that they can not bring in their weapons to Meduseld, and then says that it is a command from--pausing dramatically and squinting his eyes--Grima Wormtongue. That part struck me as quite ludicrous. Whoever the actor was, he seemed to be playing out some sort of comedic sketch, reminiscent of a Monty Python movie. Perhaps my memory on this is faded, as I have not seen the movie since a week after its release, but that part came off as a particularly unbelievable and even laughable bit of acting. (I will note however that the actor who said it played the rest of his limited role well.)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> By all means have your own opinon, but I don't quite agree with that. PJ was trying to show that even Hama disliked Wormtounge (the way the actor said it sounded like he was fed up with Grima's orders), & wished that some help could be given to his King. It didn't strike me as 'bad acting' or 'funny' in the least. <p>[ August 27, 2003: Message edited by: The Only Real Estel ]

[Liriodendron]

Any Rohirrim with half a brain should be glad to see Gandalf and Co. coming to the aid of Theoden! Wormtongue's advisings have practically put Rohan in ruin! Also, "potent wizards loved by the greatest of horses", and "future kings of steep destiny" usually give off some kind of stellar *aura*, in the past pages of the story. Seeing this awesome group out of the blue, striding up to help fight the "festering infection from within" should be welcome by any loyal Rohirran! (don'tcha think! ) Especially after Wormtongue has banished loyal son and valiant warrior Eomer! IMO <P>I have no problem with anyone letting Gandalf in (with staff) and having access to the "infected" king, especially as pathetically as Theoden is portrayed in the movies! This is "the golden opportunity" to make things right in Rohan! <P>The part with Aragorn stopping the Theoden with Wormtongue at least needs to be fleshed out more in the EE. As it is, Theoden's just woke up from Evil Wizard induced dementia....how does he even know who Aragorn is, let alone respect his judgement! The "casting out" of Grima would seem to be an internal affair, for the Rohirrim.<p>[ August 28, 2003: Message edited by: Liriodendron ]

[The Only Real Estel]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Any Rohirrim with half a brain should be glad to see Gandalf and Co. coming to the aid of Theoden!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yes, but any Rohirrim with even meager loyalties would come to the Kings aid (I would hope) when it seemed he was in pain. Plus they have no idea that Saruman is possesing him, therefore how would they know what Gandalf was doing?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The part with Aragorn stopping the Theoden with Wormtongue at least needs to be fleshed out more in the EE. As it is, Theoden's just woke up from Evil Wizard induced dementia....how does he even know who Aragorn is, let alone respect his judgement! The "casting out" of Grima would seem to be an internal affair, for the Rohirrim.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> True. Although Aragorn forecfully stopped him, so naturally the King was going to see who did it at first. Then Wormtounge bolted, so he didn't have a second chance at it. But I see what you mean.

[Liriodendron]

Ah..but surely they have the foresight to see that Theoden is about to be healed! No? Maybe? Whatever... <P>"The Theoden"....that's pretty funny, I think I'll leave it.

[The Only Real Estel]

Heh. I didn't even notice that until you brought it up. I don't know if the men of Rohan would've been able to tell or not, that's pretty much any ones guess. Still, I'd think that they'd come to his rescue (except maybe Hama, who seemes to know who Gandalf is slightly better than everyone else) once Gandalf even began to 'make his move'. If I were them I wouldn't stay put to make sure I was needed . But oh well, no one really knows for sure.

[HCIsland]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Although Aragorn forecfully stopped him, so naturally the King was going to see who did it at first. Then Wormtounge bolted, so he didn't have a second chance at it. But I see what you mean. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Rewatching Aragorn stop Theoden, it does seem a little (repeat "a little") more natural. Theoden gives him a who-the-hell-are-you look, Wormtongue bolts, then Aragorn (I think) yells, "hail, Theoden King", and kneels before him. You can tell Theoden is still not all there. The cloud lifts a bit and then comes my favourite moment in this whole sequence.<P>Theoden: Where is Theodred? Where is my son?<P>At that moment, I'm sure all thoughts of Aragorn or Wormtongue seem inconsequential. I love that they devoted some time to Theodred (more than is in the book actually). One of the advantages of having Theoden more controlled by Wormtongue and Saruman is this moment when he realizes Theodred is dead and we get that wonderfully painful moment at the barrows.<P>I know this isn't the topic, but I am estatic about the fact that Theodred's fall at the Fords of Isen and his funeral are in the Extended Edition.<P>H.C.

[Liriodendron]

Ooooooh yeah! Also the Boromir Gondor flashbacks! I could just do without the Theater release myself!

[The Saucepan Man]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I am estatic about the fact that Theodred's fall at the Fords of Isen and his funeral are in the Extended Edition. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Excellent! I hadn't realised that Theodred's fall would be in the EE, as well as his funeral. But I doubt that the encounter at the Fords of Isen will be portrayed as the battle that it is in the book. Doesn't Eomer say that he was ambushed by a bunch of Orcs, or something similar?

[Mister Underhill]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Theoden: Where is Theodred? Where is my son?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Huh. See, now this is an example of what I really disliked about the whole "possession/exorcism" choice made by Jackson & Co. It results in a Théoden who isn't responsible for his actions or his situation -- which in my mind strips him of all the depth and emotional resonance that the character has in the book. <P>This choice really left the movie characterization of Théoden at sea. The writers can’t seem to figure out whether they want to play him weak-willed and indecisive, brave in the face of overwhelming odds, a man seeking death, or a tragic victim of Fate and conspiracy. <P>I hated -- hated -- the “Who am I?” scene; the writers would have done well to have answered that question before they started tinkering.

[Liriodendron]

I still found some depth and emotional resonance! Not as much as you would like, But I don't think he was "stripped"! He seemed all to human, IMO. The movie is lighter fare, that's for sure, but I found it quite entertaining none the less.