Death of the Witch King - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Thalionmar · 08-22-2003, 02:33 PM

If, as in the book, the lord of the Nazgul is (partly) slain by a blade of westernesse that came from the barrow, how then will he be slain in the film since the barrow downs were excluded from the fellowship?I say partly because it was also down to Eowyn that the Witch King was slain. However, if in the movie the Witch King is slain wholly by a non-magical blade wielded by Eowyn I will be dissapointed as it would be too easy an end to such a powerful being.Does anyone have any suggestions as to how the Witch King will be slain without the inclusion of a powerful sword of the west of old?

Sapphire_Flame · 08-22-2003, 03:20 PM

It might still work out like that. I mean, we don't really know where Aragorn got those swords he gave the hobbits, do we? Abedithon le,~*~Aranel~*~

The Only Real Estel · 08-22-2003, 04:40 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>It might still work out like that. I mean, we don't really know where Aragorn got those swords he gave the hobbits, do we? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Actually, as HcIsland once pointed out to me, I think Merry will stab the Witch King with the dagger he got from Galadriel, don't you? Her refrence to how they already have seen their service in battle would lead you to believe that perhaps they came from Gondolin (was that the right name? I can never keep it straight ). Just a thought, but I think that's what'll happen.

peonydeepdelver · 08-22-2003, 04:41 PM

I'm more worried about whether PJ will even have Merry participate in the slaying of the Witch-king, never mind his sword.

Pukel-Man · 08-22-2003, 07:32 PM

I thought Arwen was going to kill the Witch-King in the movie.[ August 22, 2003: Message edited by: Pukel-Man ]

Meneltarmacil · 08-22-2003, 08:21 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I thought Arwen was going to kill the Witch-King in the movie.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Oh my God don't let this be true! Anyway, I think Eowyn is still going to kill him, and no matter what you think happened, here's how it happened in the book. Eowyn kills his beast, the Witch King hits her with his mace, then Merry hits him in the leg with his sword. He's crippled, but not quite dead until Eowyn stabs him with her sword.So there you have it: He was killed with Eowyn's sword, not Merry's. You have my word that this is how it happened in the book, and if you doubt what I say, feel free to look it up.[ August 22, 2003: Message edited by: Meneltarmacil ]

The Only Real Estel · 08-22-2003, 08:34 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>So there you have it: He was killed with Eowyn's sword, not Merry's. You have my word that this is how it happened in the book, and if you doubt what I say, feel free to look it up.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Meneltarmacil: Yes, Merry saved Eowyn from being killed by stabbing the Witch King with his sword that was wrought with spells for the destruction of Evil, & then Eowyn killed him while he was down (since he couldn't have been killed by a man). Therefore if you want to get techinical, Merry & Eowyn killed the Witch King, since niether could've without the other.

Kaiserin · 08-22-2003, 08:48 PM

PJ probably didn't think that it would matter to the masses of viewers whether Merry's blade came from the Barrow-Downs, or from Lorien or wherever. A lot of moviegoers don't appreciate detail and technicalities (At least we know the truth! ). PJ probably only cared about getting the Witch-King killed, not minding about the tiny details that we observant readers care so much about. Anyway, we'll be seeing ROTK in a few months, and after that we'll have another topic to rant or rave about here in the discussion forum. I do hope this particular scene will stay faithful to the book - Merry, Eowyn, powerful lines and all. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I thought Arwen was going to kill the Witch-King in the movie <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Oh no... say it isn't so! It was enough that she stole Glorfindel's part, she shouldn't take Eowyn's.[ August 22, 2003: Message edited by: Kaiserin ]

Meneltarmacil · 08-22-2003, 09:20 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Oh no... say it isn't so! It was enough that she stole Glorfindel's part, she shouldn't take Eowyn's.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Don't worry, I seriously doubt she will. If she does participate in the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, she'll arrive with Aragorn, who as you know does not arrive until after the Witch King is dead.

Lord of Angmar · 08-22-2003, 09:28 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>If she does participate in the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, she'll arrive with Aragorn, who as you know does not arrive until after the Witch King is dead.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I hope she does not fight. I imagine she will. I am certain she will not steal Eowyn's part in the destruction of the Witch King. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>So there you have it: He was killed with Eowyn's sword, not Merry's. You have my word that this is how it happened in the book, and if you doubt what I say, feel free to look it up.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Merry had just as big of a role as Eowyn in the vanquishing of the Witch King. To argue that Eowyn was the sole reason for his destruction, or even the larger reason (which would be the only plausible reason for the above statement) is inaccurate.

Meneltarmacil · 08-22-2003, 09:45 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Merry had just as big of a role as Eowyn in the vanquishing of the Witch King. To argue that Eowyn was the sole reason for his destruction, or even the larger reason (which would be the only plausible reason for the above statement) is inaccurate.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> That was hardly my point at all, Lord of Angmar. I was only saying that Eowyn's completely mundane Rohirrim sword could work just as well as Merry's magical barrow sword against the Witch King.

peonydeepdelver · 08-23-2003, 09:02 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> A lot of moviegoers don't appreciate detail and technicalities (At least we know the truth!). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Ah, but a lot of them will be thinking along the lines of, "Why didn't they just do that in the first place?" and why the Witch-king was killed even though Gollum said in TTT that you can't kill the wraiths. But then again, we're talking about the people that call poor Gollum a schiz.

Lord of Angmar · 08-23-2003, 10:14 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>and why the Witch-king was killed even though Gollum said in TTT that you can't kill the wraiths<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Since when is Gollum considered a reliable source of information?Meneltarmacil, I did not mean to sound harsh with my above statement, but I do not agree that <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Eowyn's completely mundane Rohirrim sword could work just as well as Merry's magical barrow sword against the Witch King.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Eowyn's sword would have been unable to destroy the Lord of the Nazgul if Merry's blade had not been a work of Westernesse: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will. (The Return of the King)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>In other words, no other blade would have sufficed to puncture the "undead flesh" of the Witch King, and it was solely because of the use of Merry's sword to wound the Witch King and "break the spell that knit his unseen sinews" that Eowyn had the ability to destroy him once and for all.

The Only Real Estel · 08-23-2003, 11:53 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>and why the Witch-king was killed even though Gollum said in TTT that you can't kill the wraiths<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I wouldn't say that Gollum ISN'T a reliable source of information. But you can't kill the Witch King unless you're not a man, according to the prophesy.

peonydeepdelver · 08-23-2003, 01:11 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Since when is Gollum considered a reliable source of information?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Does the audience that hasn't read the books know that? They'll still be wondering why they didn't do that in the first place...

08-22-2003, 02:33 PM	#1
Thalionmar Pile O'Bones Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Memories of the wise. Posts: 17	Death of the Witch King If, as in the book, the lord of the Nazgul is (partly) slain by a blade of westernesse that came from the barrow, how then will he be slain in the film since the barrow downs were excluded from the fellowship?<P>I say partly because it was also down to Eowyn that the Witch King was slain. However, if in the movie the Witch King is slain wholly by a non-magical blade wielded by Eowyn I will be dissapointed as it would be too easy an end to such a powerful being.<P>Does anyone have any suggestions as to how the Witch King will be slain without the inclusion of a powerful sword of the west of old? __________________ Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens.

08-22-2003, 03:20 PM	#2
Sapphire_Flame Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: The World That Never Was Posts: 1,232	It might still work out like that. I mean, we don't really know <I>where</I> Aragorn got those swords he gave the hobbits, do we? <P>Abedithon le,<P>~~Aranel~~ __________________ The Hitchhiking Ghost

08-22-2003, 04:41 PM	#4
peonydeepdelver Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Alas, I hail from Massachusetts Posts: 256	I'm more worried about whether PJ will even have Merry participate in the slaying of the Witch-king, never mind his sword. __________________ "Nazgul, Nazgul! You speak of what is deep beyond the reach of your muddy dreams, Ugluk! Nazgul! Ah! All that they make out! One day you'll wish that you had not said that. Ape! You ought to know that they're the apple of the Great Eye." ~Grishnakh

08-22-2003, 07:32 PM	#5
Pukel-Man Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona, -East of Dunharrow Posts: 54	I thought Arwen was going to kill the Witch-King in the movie.<p>[ August 22, 2003: Message edited by: Pukel-Man ] __________________ This is not the time or the place to perform some kind of a half-assed autopsy on a fish... And I'm not going to stand here and see that thing cut open and see that little Kintner boy spill out all over the dock!-Mayor Vaughn

08-22-2003, 08:21 PM	#6
Meneltarmacil Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: The bottom of the ocean, discussing philosophy with a giant squid Posts: 2,254	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I thought Arwen was going to kill the Witch-King in the movie.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Oh my God don't let this be true! <BR>Anyway, I think Eowyn is still going to kill him, and no matter what you think happened, here's how it happened in the book. Eowyn kills his beast, the Witch King hits her with his mace, then Merry hits him in the leg with his sword. He's crippled, but not quite dead until Eowyn stabs him with her sword.<P>So there you have it: He was killed with Eowyn's sword, not Merry's. You have my word that this is how it happened in the book, and if you doubt what I say, feel free to look it up.<p>[ August 22, 2003: Message edited by: Meneltarmacil ] __________________ I ♣ baby seals.

08-22-2003, 04:40 PM	#3
The Only Real Estel Raffish Rapscallion Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Far from the 'Downs, it seems :-( Posts: 2,835	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>It might still work out like that. I mean, we don't really know where Aragorn got those swords he gave the hobbits, do we? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Actually, as HcIsland once pointed out to me, I think Merry will stab the Witch King with the dagger he got from Galadriel, don't you? Her refrence to how they already have seen their service in battle would lead you to believe that perhaps they came from Gondolin (was that the right name? I can never keep it straight ). Just a thought, but I think that's what'll happen.

08-22-2003, 08:34 PM	#7
The Only Real Estel Raffish Rapscallion Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Far from the 'Downs, it seems :-( Posts: 2,835	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>So there you have it: He was killed with Eowyn's sword, not Merry's. You have my word that this is how it happened in the book, and if you doubt what I say, feel free to look it up.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Meneltarmacil: Yes, Merry saved Eowyn from being killed by stabbing the Witch King with his sword that was wrought with spells for the destruction of Evil, & then Eowyn killed him while he was down (since he couldn't have been killed by a man). Therefore if you want to get techinical, Merry <I>&</I> Eowyn killed the Witch King, since niether could've without the other.

08-22-2003, 08:48 PM	#8
Kaiserin Wight Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cair Paravel Posts: 150	PJ probably didn't think that it would matter to the masses of viewers whether Merry's blade came from the Barrow-Downs, or from Lorien or wherever. A lot of moviegoers don't appreciate detail and technicalities (At least <I>we</I> know the truth! ). PJ probably only cared about getting the Witch-King killed, not minding about the tiny details that we observant readers care so much about. Anyway, we'll be seeing ROTK in a few months, and after that we'll have another topic to rant or rave about here in the discussion forum. <P>I do hope this particular scene will stay faithful to the book - Merry, Eowyn, powerful lines and all. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I thought Arwen was going to kill the Witch-King in the movie <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Oh no... say it isn't so! It was enough that she stole Glorfindel's part, she shouldn't take Eowyn's.<p>[ August 22, 2003: Message edited by: Kaiserin ] __________________ The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

08-22-2003, 09:20 PM	#9
Meneltarmacil Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: The bottom of the ocean, discussing philosophy with a giant squid Posts: 2,254	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Oh no... say it isn't so! It was enough that she stole Glorfindel's part, she shouldn't take Eowyn's.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Don't worry, I seriously doubt she will. If she does participate in the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, she'll arrive with Aragorn, who as you know does not arrive until after the Witch King is dead. __________________ I ♣ baby seals.

08-22-2003, 09:28 PM	#10
Lord of Angmar Tyrannus Incorporalis Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: the North Posts: 833	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>If she does participate in the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, she'll arrive with Aragorn, who as you know does not arrive until after the Witch King is dead.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I hope she does not fight. I imagine she will. I am certain she will not steal Eowyn's part in the destruction of the Witch King.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>So there you have it: He was killed with Eowyn's sword, not Merry's. You have my word that this is how it happened in the book, and if you doubt what I say, feel free to look it up.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Merry had just as big of a role as Eowyn in the vanquishing of the Witch King. To argue that Eowyn was the sole reason for his destruction, or even the larger reason (which would be the only plausible reason for the above statement) is inaccurate. __________________ ...where the instrument of intelligence is added to brute power and evil will, mankind is powerless in its own defence.

08-22-2003, 09:45 PM	#11
Meneltarmacil Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: The bottom of the ocean, discussing philosophy with a giant squid Posts: 2,254	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Merry had just as big of a role as Eowyn in the vanquishing of the Witch King. To argue that Eowyn was the sole reason for his destruction, or even the larger reason (which would be the only plausible reason for the above statement) is inaccurate.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>That was hardly my point at all, Lord of Angmar. I was only saying that Eowyn's completely mundane Rohirrim sword could work just as well as Merry's magical barrow sword against the Witch King. __________________ I ♣ baby seals.

08-23-2003, 09:02 AM	#12
peonydeepdelver Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Alas, I hail from Massachusetts Posts: 256	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> A lot of moviegoers don't appreciate detail and technicalities (At least we know the truth!). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Ah, but a lot of them will be thinking along the lines of, "Why didn't they just do that in the first place?" and why the Witch-king was killed even though Gollum said in TTT that you can't kill the wraiths. But then again, we're talking about the people that call poor Gollum a schiz. __________________ "Nazgul, Nazgul! You speak of what is deep beyond the reach of your muddy dreams, Ugluk! Nazgul! Ah! All that they make out! One day you'll wish that you had not said that. Ape! You ought to know that they're the apple of the Great Eye." ~Grishnakh

08-23-2003, 10:14 AM	#13
Lord of Angmar Tyrannus Incorporalis Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: the North Posts: 833	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>and why the Witch-king was killed even though Gollum said in TTT that you can't kill the wraiths<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Since when is Gollum considered a reliable source of information?<P>Meneltarmacil, I did not mean to sound harsh with my above statement, but I do not agree that <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Eowyn's completely mundane Rohirrim sword could work just as well as Merry's magical barrow sword against the Witch King.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Eowyn's sword would have been unable to destroy the Lord of the Nazgul if Merry's blade had not been a work of Westernesse:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will. (The Return of the King)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>In other words, no other blade would have sufficed to puncture the "undead flesh" of the Witch King, and it was <I>solely</I> because of the use of Merry's sword to wound the Witch King and "break the spell that knit his unseen sinews" that Eowyn had the ability to destroy him once and for all. __________________ ...where the instrument of intelligence is added to brute power and evil will, mankind is powerless in its own defence.

08-23-2003, 11:53 AM	#14
The Only Real Estel Raffish Rapscallion Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Far from the 'Downs, it seems :-( Posts: 2,835	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>and why the Witch-king was killed even though Gollum said in TTT that you can't kill the wraiths<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I wouldn't say that Gollum ISN'T a reliable source of information. But you can't kill the Witch King unless you're not a man, according to the prophesy.

08-23-2003, 01:11 PM	#15
peonydeepdelver Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Alas, I hail from Massachusetts Posts: 256	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Since when is Gollum considered a reliable source of information?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Does the audience that hasn't read the books know that? They'll still be wondering why they didn't do that in the first place... __________________ "Nazgul, Nazgul! You speak of what is deep beyond the reach of your muddy dreams, Ugluk! Nazgul! Ah! All that they make out! One day you'll wish that you had not said that. Ape! You ought to know that they're the apple of the Great Eye." ~Grishnakh