Did Miriel see what was coming?

[StarJewel]

Ok, I've been mulling over this for awhile, when Miriel died, did she see what was coming with Feanor?

"It is indeed unhappy," said Miriel,"and I would weep, if I were but now so weary. But hold me blameless in this, and in all that may come after."

It almost sounds like she knew Feanor would do something bad (understatement of the millenium).

[davem]

This is a sidetrack, I know, but isn't it clear that Miriel was suffering from a kind of Post Natal depression? Has anyone suggested that Tolkien may have had some experience of this with Edith - do we know if Edith ever suffered in this way?

Please don't let this question distract anyone from responding to the main point of this thread, which I think could lead to some interesting thoughts.

[Sharkû]

cf. HoME X,3,II,iii, Laws B:
<font size="-2">"Mothers often gave to their children special names of their own choosing. The most notable of these were the 'names of insight', essi tercenye, or of 'foresight', apacenye. In the hour of birth, or on some other occasion or moment, the mother might give a name to her child, indicating some dominant feature of its nature as perceived by her, or some foresight of its special fate."

[Lord Elrond]

I agree with Sharku to an extent. She probably had some idea that the child she was bearing would be a very zealous person. Since Feanors body burst into flames and was blown about by the wind when he died who is to say exactly what Miriel suffered during the actual conception and delivery of him as well. Probably the same burning feeling that occurred at his death to say the least.

[lindil]

I'd call that a Bullseye Sharku [and Lord Elrond]. And a well abbreviated indexing of the source too.

DaveM that is certainly a very interesting [and quite likely] possibility.

I recall something of Edith saying after their firstborn's birth something like 'I shall never go round with you again...'
indicating some kind of serious stress in childbirth I would hazard. OF course really spotting post-partum depression amongst English women of WWI might be near to impossible due the 'stiff upper lip thing'. But perhaps a native could comment more accurately on all that. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

In the Shibboleth [?] however, she stays around long enough to see some of Feanor's youth.

But the end cause of her fleeing her body is the same.

[ November 21, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Post-natal depression amongst Elves? I'd have thought they'd be free from it, fitting in with the whole 'greater bliss in Arda' thing; Elves did not suffer human ailments like that.

What Miriel experienced after giving birth to Feanor was clearly a sort of one-off, and due, as everyone seems to say, to the peculiar nature of Feanor's fea -- Miriel's spirit worn down and wearied by it -- rather than hormone imbalances...

[davem]

Perhaps it was an experience of Post Natal/Partum depression that inspired Tolkien. I think its a big, unanswered question to what extent Tolkien is 'inventing' everything, in a kind of detached way, & to what extent he is 'mythologising' his own personal experiences in the Legendarium. In the Great War thread I set out John Garth's idea that many of the themes & images in the Legendarium were a mythologising of his experiences in WW1 - 'tanks' at the Fall of Gondolin, etc. Tolkien did have a tendency, in Garth's phrase, to see the world 'through enchanted eyes'. I suspect, though, that we can only speculate on this matter - unless Christopher is willing to release the rest of the Letters, & his father's diaries.

[Finwe]

Miriel said that the strength that would have gone into the bearing of many had all gone into bearing Fëanor, and considering that she was a fairly mighty Elf (being in Aman), that must have really weakened her, if she lost that much strength. Another thing that could have "driven" her to "die," was that with the gift of foresight granted to most mothers, she might have seen what Fëanor was destined to do (Slaying at Alqualondë, etc.) and that sickened her. That took away the last of her strength and she knew that she just couldn't go on, knowing that even though her son would be the greatest Elf of all time, he would be known as a murderer. Not many mothers can deal with that. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

I don't think that we can say this with any great certainty. If she did forsee it, then her action was appallingly selfish, since Tolkien wrote:

In the Elvish legends there is record of a strange case of an Elf (Míriel mother of Fëanor) that tried to die, which had disastrous results, leading to the 'Fall' of the High Elves.
(Letter #212)

And in The Shibboleth of Fëanor he says:

While [Míriel] lived, she did much with gentle counsel to soften and restrain [Fëanor]. Her death was a lasting grief to Fëanor, and both directly and by its further consequences a main cause of his later disastrous influence on the history of the Ñoldor

Clearly if Míriel could forsee the Kinslaying and the Fall of the Noldor, then she could also forsee the part that her refusal to be rebodied would play in those events. She may have ignored the misery of her husband and son in her desire for peace, but could she disregard the well-being of her entire people? I think this unlikely.