I saw Arwen at Helms Deep! AHHHHH

[Earendil Halfelven]

Ok, I did a search to see if anyone caught this in TTT but it turned up nothing, so I guess I'll just point out this little blooper. Towards the end of Helms Deep when Gandalf and Eomer are charging and they crash into the orcs, if you play it in slow motion (if you have it), look in the background and you will notice a white horse with Arwen in a pink dress killing orcs. It lasts for about one second in real time. Now, unless one of the Rohirrim likes cross-dressing and the color pink and somehow gained possession of Arwen's sword, I'd say thats Arwen. I guess this is even more evidence of PJ putting Arwen where she doesn't belong but then in attempting to edit her out, he missed a tiny little bit.<P>BTW-I think this is in the theatrical version. I don't know about the EE though.

[HCIsland]

Jackson makes no secret of Arwen being at Helm's Deep. In fact they talk about it in the documentaries. You can even see the original shot of Theoden and company charging down the ramp in which Arwen is clearly there. In the movie she's digitally changed into a Rohirrim.<P>I've frame advanced through these scenes looking for Arwen and never found her, though there are some obvious shots that were cut just before she would come on screen. Can you be a little more specific as to where your shot in question is?<P>H.C.

[Gashberz]

OMG!!!! Arwyn was cool in the books. I like d her but shes just plain annoying in the movies.

[symestreem]

In the TTT EE documentaries I disctinctly remember the director saying Arwen was no longer at Helm's Deep.

[Lalaith]

Does anyone know - what was the original plan with Arwen in the films, and at what point did they decide to change it? In the original plan, where did she go after Helms Deep? Presumably not back to Rivendell..and did she bring Anduril to Helms Deep?<BR>Were the changes made only after all the anti-Xenarwen shrieking from Tolkien geeks post-FotR?<BR>So, was the whole going to Valinor/getting sick from the Ring nonsense, material that was reshot after the release of FotR?<P>Frankly, I have never understood why most people here seem to think that it is better to have non-canonical Arwen nearly-going-to-Valinor-and-succumbing-to-mysterious-illness than to have her turning up at Helms Deep with a bunch of other elves who shouldn't be there either.

[HCIsland]

I know that she was original to bring Anduril to Helm's Deep. All I know of afterwards is that there were scenes shot between Arwen, Elrond and Galadriel at Lorien. When exactly the change happened I'm not sure. It was certainly after principle photography. <P>I know a lot of folks feel the Arwen backlash was to credit but I'm not convinced of that and certainly the film makers would never admit to it if it were true. Personally, I think they just thought of a better way to keep Arwen in the story.<P>H.C.

[Lily Bracegirdle]

To answer your question, HC, watch the film to the point where Gandalf and Eomer charge down on the orcs and jump into them. Right after that orc head goes flying, pause the movie and advance frame by frame. You'll see Arwen's arm, holding her elven sword, in the background. She's wearing some maroonish bell-type sleeves. I never actually saw her face, but it's definitely Arwen.<P>I'm also curious to know what was supposed to happen to Arwen after Helm's Deep. Did she just give Aragorn a smooch and traipse off to Lorien to wait out the rest of the War? Or did she go along on the Paths of the Dead?<P>I think Arwen's role was changed in response to fan outrage, but can't remember where I heard it. Possibly on the director's commentary?<P>-Lily

[HCIsland]

Thanks, Lily. I found it.<P>***giggle***<P>There's even a clearer shot a few shots later that I think is the one the Earendil was talking about. There's no question it's her.<P>H.C.

[Meela]

I saw that forever ago.<P>Never watched the documentaries, but I'm glad it was cut, just to save the fuss of angry fans. I would like to have been able to see the original scenes where she was included.

[Orominuialwen]

You can find some pictures of her <A HREF="http://www.alleycatscratch.com/lotr/Elf/Arwen/Maroon.htm" TARGET=_blank>here</A>. It's from a costume site, but there are links to the pictures.<P><BR>Edit: Yay! My 200th post! <p>[ 5:32 PM January 26, 2004: Message edited by: Orominuialwen ]

[Arwen Evenstar]

Really?! I`ll have to watch that in slow motion.<BR>Did you know that in the script, Arwen was supposed to appear at Helms Deep, but PJ changed his mind just before shooting?<BR>

[Finwe]

Yep. They even had armor planned out for her and everything. <P>BTW, they didn't change her into a Rohir, they changed her into Legolas in all the shots that really showed her. I don't think that the editing team expected people to watch things in slow motion.

[Lord of Angmar]

I don't really understand why he would even have Liv Tyler at the shooting of the Helm's Deep battle, let alone actually film her in the scene (albeit very briefly). Putting yourself into the movie in minor bits as Peter Jackson has done is amusing, but toying with the material by inserting characters randomly into scenes where they so obviously should not be seems to be bordering on the disrespectful.<P>-Angmar

[HCIsland]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Putting yourself into the movie in minor bits as Peter Jackson has done is amusing, but toying with the material by inserting characters randomly into scenes where they so obviously should not be seems to be bordering on the disrespectful.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Well it's obviously not random nor a cameo. They wanted Arwen to have a role in each of the three films and I think their reasons for wanting that are sound. I'm glad they found a better way to do it. I thought the flashbacks in Towers worked very well, though I can't say the same for linking Arwen's fate to that of the Ring. I wonder if that was some way of paying homage to the fact that the elves power fades with the destruction of the Ring. If it was it didn't work.<P>And if Arwen was changed to Legolas coming down the ramp during Theoden's charge, then there is clearly to Legolases there.<P>H.C.

[Galadel Vinorel]

Really! Arwen at Helms Deep? Well, I will certainly have to watch that scene in slow motion.<P>As for some people's questions. In the third and fourth cds of the TTT Extended Version DVD Peter Jackson and some of the ohter producers, plus Liv Tyler say that at the very beginning of the filming they were going to have Arwen and Elrond go to Lothlorien. Then, Arwen was supposed to travel on to Helms Deep to be with Aragorn. This was done because they needed to have a romance in the movie, so they thought that the two lovers would have to be together. Yet, they discovered in the Appendices of the Return of the King the section on the Romance of Aragorn and Arwen (not sure what this chapter is truly called, though). So, they had found a way to make the far-away love affair between them work. That is when they stopped the training of Liv Tyler, for she had been training for quite a while in swordfighting, and they stopped recording and cut out and replaced the battle scenes of Helms Deep in which Arwen was fighting alongside of Aragorn.<P>Well, I hope that my insight into this matter helps to shine some light on it. What has everyone else heard about this particular subject? Namarie, fellow dead ones.

[Lord of Angmar]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I'm glad they found a better way to do it. I thought the flashbacks in Towers worked very well, though I can't say the same for linking Arwen's fate to that of the Ring. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>H.C., my quarrel was never with them expanding Arwen's role, which personally I had only minor problems with. My quarrel was instead a rather miniscule one with the fact that Peter Jackson decided to film Arwen riding with the Rohirrim at Helm's Deep. I do not see how Peter Jackson could insert something like that into the trilogy without a serious loss of respect for Mr. Jackson from avid Tolkien readers, therefore the mere fact that he decided to film such an occurrence made him lose a bit of credibility in my eyes.<P>-Angmar

[HCIsland]

In the original incantation, Arwen doesn't arrive with the Rohirrim, she is there before hand. I can only imagine she arrived with the elves. In the documentaries packaged with the extended Towers there are clear shots of her fighting on the wall and riding down the ramp with Theoden and Aragorn.<P>H.C.

[Lord of Angmar]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Towards the end of Helms Deep when Gandalf and Eomer are charging and they crash into the orcs, if you play it in slow motion (if you have it), look in the background and you will notice a white horse with Arwen in a pink dress killing orcs. (Earendil Halfelven)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Having not actually seen the documentary referred to, I used this as the basis for my earlier posts. While the scenario detailed in the above quote is certainly worse than Arwen arriving at Helm's Deep with the Elves, both still take too much liberty with Tolkien's text for my taste. I too am<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>glad they found a better way to do it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>-Angmar

[Lalaith]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Arwen arriving at Helm's Deep with the Elves, both still take too much liberty with Tolkien's text for my taste <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>But why is Arwen at Helm's Deep so much worse than Haldir at Helm's Deep? Is it worse because she's a girl? And why is making her nearly go to Valinor and then getting sick "a better way of doing it"?

[Kronos]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> But why is Arwen at Helm's Deep so much worse than Haldir at Helm's Deep? Is it worse because she's a girl? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think there is more truth to what you say than some people would want to admit.

[Kronos]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> OMG!!!! Arwyn was cool in the books. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Wow she sure must have been to make that much of an impression in the two sentences or so of dialogue that Tolkien allows her.

[ArathorofBarahir]

I never noticed that! I bet they out that in there to see if we the fans would notice!

[Lord of Angmar]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>But why is Arwen at Helm's Deep so much worse than Haldir at Helm's Deep? Is it worse because she's a girl? And why is making her nearly go to Valinor and then getting sick "a better way of doing it"?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I really hope you are not accusing me of being sexist. No, it is not because Arwen is a girl. It is because Arwen's character is much more vital to the plot and much more subtely drawn than Haldir's, and changing the plot to have her fighting alongside Aragorn at Helm's Deep is simply too much of a stretch and would detract too greatly from the mysteriousness of their relationship (in my opinion).<P>I did not think having her almost go to Valinor would be a much better way of doing it, as a matter of fact. In all honesty, I think the best way to do it would have been to leave her like she was in the books. But I do think that the way in which her character interacted with Aragorn in <I>The Two Towers</I> (with short and poignant flashbacks) was the best way to bring across the nature of her relationship with Aragorn as Tolkien himself would have wanted it conveyed. <P>Please do not be so inconsiderate as to imply that I am in any way sexist, and if you do, at least do it over Private Messaging. It is the nature of Arwen's character in the books, not Arwen's gender, that makes me find Peter Jackson's use of her in the certain instances in the movies somewhat suspect. Rest assured that I would be equally upset if Cirdan or Elrond rode to the defence of Gondor or Rohan (although even these would be more credible than Arwen doing so for Helm's Deep, since Arwen is never described as having partaken in any battles).<P>-Angmar

[Lalaith]

Lord of Angmar, I can see that you took my comment personally which is fair enough as I quoted you, but I should explain that it was not directed personally to you and so it would have been quite inappropriate of me to PM you with it. And I accept your point about the flashbacks being a good way of bringing in the appendix material. <P>My point was more one about general attitude amongst Tolkien fans. There is far more fuss about Arwen than there has been about anything else - so much so, in fact, that as the subject of this thread indicates, it seems that PJ was forced to change the plotline he had mapped out - something he didn't do with any other character. <BR>So, I think it is pertinent to ask, why particularly Arwen? Taking her to Helm's Deep is no more of a plot change than having Elrond bring Anduril to Aragorn in Rohan. And Elrond is a far more important character than Arwen. Where was the outrage about that?<BR>And why not outrage about, say, Theoden's total change of character, when Theoden is a far more well-developed and important persona in the book than Arwen? I could go on...<BR>And why is there much less fuss about changes to Arwen's storyline that make her more passive and feminine, than there are about ones that make her more proactive?<P>I would reiterate that I am not accusing any specific person here on this board of sexism. But these are points that interest me.

[Earendil Halfelven]

Now, don't think I'm being sexist about what I'm about to say but here goes-<P>In my humble opinion, the reason PJ increased Arwen's role so much than it is in the books, I think, is because of the outrage he probably anticipated coming from the feminist groups. Think about it: Tolkien, in writing LOTR, probably based men and women's roles on what they were in the Medieval Ages. In the books, including the Silmarillion, I can't think of one female character who ever went to battle. Now, battle came to women, as is evident in Rohan when orcs and wild men raided villages and such, but the women never went out to battle, with the exception of Eowyn.<P>Now, in the movies, imagine the outrage that PJ and New Line Cinema would have taken and would probably still be taking from the huge feminist groups for PJ's "sexist portrayal of women in making them seem lesser and dependent on men." So, I just figure that PJ had a choice between two evils:<BR> 1. Bear the anger of the femi-nazis and possible legal action against New Line Cinema and the films, thus screwing it up for all of us or...<BR> 2. Bear the bitterness of fans for about a few years.<P>Now, don't take my word for this. This is just me thinking but it does seem possible with the way our society has become so politically correct.<p>[ 6:42 PM January 26, 2004: Message edited by: Earendil Halfelven ]

[Lalaith]

Legal action? On what grounds? Did Saving Private Ryan - and almost any other war movie I can think of - get sued? <BR> I think someone's been feeding you some strange ideas about feminists, their motivations and their power in the world. <BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> In the books, including the Silmarillion, I can't think of one female character who ever went to battle <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>The women of the People of Haleth, one of the Three Houses of the Edain, fought alongside their menfolk. Indeed, Haleth herself, the woman who gave the house its name, was a redoubtable fighter.

[Earendil Halfelven]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Did Saving Private Ryan - and almost any other war movie I can think of - get sued?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Ok-you know that adding women to Saving Private Ryan and having them storm the beaches at Normandy would be the biggest blunder Hollywood could ever make! They were being historically accurate in portraying women's roles of the 1940's during WWII. The reason SPR didn't get sued is because they were being historically accurate. You can't sue someone for making a movie and portraying history as it was. LOTR, however, is fantasy, and is totally different from historical movies. I think you need to make that connection between the two before you compare history to fantasy.

[Lalaith]

Feminist organisations do not have either the money, the power, the legal basis or the inclination to go around suing film-makers for making movies based on books that don't have a lot of female characters in them.

[Galadel Vinorel]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> My point was more one about general attitude amongst Tolkien fans. There is far more fuss about Arwen than there has been about anything else - so much so, in fact, that as the subject of this thread indicates, it seems that PJ was forced to change the plotline he had mapped out - something he didn't do with any other character. <BR>So, I think it is pertinent to ask, why particularly Arwen? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think that I can answer your question a bit, Lalaith<P>From the time since some fans first discovered that Liv Tyler would be playing the role of Arwen, some of them have been protesting against her. (I say "some" for I do not want to point any fingers, for not all fans, including myself, did what I am now describing.) This protesting caused Peter Jackson and the writers a lot of trouble, not to mention that it caused Liv Tyler, who so did not deserve being referred to as some of the horrible things that the fans called her, a lot of heartache. Some fans wrote about her very badly, and she even said herself in one of the interviews in the third cd of the TTT EE that she cried when she saw all the terrible things that some people had said about her. So, when the writers discovered the romance of Aragorn and Arwen in the Appendices, they took this opportunity, and changed the storyline so that they could avoid all of the things that would have been said if they had allowed Arwen to travel to Helms Deep in the final cut of the movie. <P>Plus, I believe that the writers and P.J. did not really want, at the beginning, to have to change the storyline so much, as to have Arwen go to Helms Deep, yet they saw no other way to keep the love affair between the two alive. So, when they found their story in the Appendices, they jumped at the opportunity to change the script around.<P>Personally, I am very glad that P.J. put in the flashback scenes between Arwen rather than change the story around to have Arwen go to Helms Deep. That would have been too much of a change for me, on top of the fact that the elves of Lothlorien were sent to Helms Deep.<P>Well, hope this helps out a little. Namarie, everyone.

[Lalaith]

Thank you for that explanation Galadel. I had no idea the campaigning against the poor woman had been so vicious as to reduce her to tears. <BR>Where were all these huge, big, all-powerful femnazi organisations, I wonder, could they not have leapt to her defence with an onslaught of legal action?

[Silmiel of Imladris]

I have got to check this out for myself. <P>:Goes to to look:<P>:Time passes:<P>Hmmm... that was very interesting. I wonder who had to watch the whole movie in slow mo just to find that. I knew that she was supposed to be at Helms deep oringinally but I though she would have came with the rest of the elves. In my opinion if they would have left this in there the scene where Elrond sends Arwen to the gray havens would have been in ROTK instead of TTT and then she would have rode back in the middle of the movie.<p>[ 8:16 PM January 26, 2004: Message edited by: Silmiel of Imladris ]

[Lord of Angmar]

I agree that Liv Tyler's being maligned is extremely regrettable and just plain igorant and malicious on the part of her slanderers. To me, it does not matter who was cast for the part. I am not sexist, nor do I find Liv Tyler to be anything less or more than a decent actress. I would say in defense of some of the people who wanted Arwen's part reduced (not including those that attacked Ms. Tyler personally, who I adamantly refuse to defend) that I think most people have a problem with Arwen's inflated role because her character was meant to be mysterious, subtle and unobtrusive pacing-wise to the plot of J.R.R. Tolkien's <I>The Lord of the Rings</I>. Unlike other minor characters, her role was limited for reasons of subtlety and poignance by Professor Tolkien, not because he believed that she did not deserve a bigger role. Some protesters of her role in the movies feel that her role was expanded in a way that Tolkien would not have wanted - as a means of turning <I>The Lord of the Rings</I> into a more traditional romantic epic and to combat any feminist complaints. <P>-Angmar

[Silmiel of Imladris]

A thought just occured to me. Maybe it wasn't Arwen, maybe it was Haldir's ghost for he did have a similar sword and he was wearing red. Maybe he didn't die after all. JK.

[Earendil Halfelven]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Where were all these huge, big, all-powerful femnazi organisations, I wonder, could they not have leapt to her defence with an onslaught of legal action? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Ahhhhhh, sarcasm. The defense of the weak. <P>I didn't say the feminist groups were all powerful, so please stop blowing what I said out of proportion. I was just saying that as a thought, not as a sure fact. There's no point in debating feminist groups and whether or not they would or could sue New Line Cinema. At least, worrying about feminist groups ranks beneath whether or not I get activated and sent to Iraq on my list of things. And anyways, feminist groups are off the topic, so let's steer back towards Arwen. I'm not putting Liv Tyler's down or her role in the films. I thought she did just fine with what the script writers had given her. <P>So, back to Arwen and her pink dress!<P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>...I think most people have a problem with Arwen's inflated role because her character was meant to be mysterious, subtle and unobtrusive... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Thats almost exactly the impression of Arwen that I had when I first read the trilogy. I figured that Arwen was a figure of Elvish "nobility," I guess you can say; a person of mystery and awe, and not the sort of lady you can just walk up to and say "Hi!" In the books, she commands respect among the folk of ME. <P>In the movie, I get that sort of impression, but not quit, and I guess others also have that impression of her from the story, but are disappointed when they see Arwen on screen just like one of the "guys." I guess thats what bothers people.<p>[ 10:00 PM January 26, 2004: Message edited by: Earendil Halfelven ]

[Lily Bracegirdle]

Earendil, please do not use the term "feminazi". I find it extremely offensive.<P>Please take a quick test:<P>True or False: I believe that if a woman does the same work as a man she should be paid the same salary. (I am NOT referring to women who want to be Navy SEALs or firefighters, just regular white-collar workers.) <P>If you answered "true," you are a feminist!<P>Lalaith, I think the elves at Helm's Deep raised as much of a furor as Arwen's presence, and the change in Faramir's character raised even more of one, so I don't think the fans are fixated on Arwen per se. They're more apt to be against anything that went against the spirit of the book, no matter who it concerned.<P>I'm a feminist, and I opposed Arwen being at Helm's Deep simply because she didn't belong there. My feelings about Arwen's role have nothing to do with my felings about the role of women in society. It's inflammatory to throw politics into the mix.<P>-Lily<p>[ 6:49 PM January 27, 2004: Message edited by: Lily Bracegirdle ]

[Lalaith]

Lily et al - I'm not disputing for one minute the book-based reasons for not wanting Arwen at Helms Deep. They are perfectly good and valid ones, and I agree with a lot of them. <BR>But PJ made a lot of changes made to a lot of characters.<BR>I still do feel, from my observation of this board and others, that the general fan reaction to Arwen and her plotline *has* been different, more virulent, than the reaction to other changes. <BR> Yes, some fans got pretty angry about Faramir, but was there a vitriolic campaign, some of it directed against David Wenham? No.<p>[ 7:10 PM January 27, 2004: Message edited by: Lalaith ]

[Lily Bracegirdle]

Lalaith, I agree that the fan reaction to the changes in Arwen's character had a nasty edge to it. That was wrong. Some of those people were just rude and immature, in my opinion. I also had misgivings about Liv Tyler when I first heard about her, because I had only seen her in one movie and wasn't sure she could act well enough to be stacked up against the likes of Ian McKellan and Elijah Wood, who I thought were great actors. I was wrong. She did a wonderful job and deserves a lot of credit. I think many people at first thought she was wrong for the part and voiced their opinions loudly. The changes in the plot only aggravated their malcontent and they got mean about it.<P>David Wenham was different. I had never heard of him, so had no preconceived notions about his abilities as an actor. After seeing him, I was extremely displeased with his part and was fairly vocal about it. I still don't like Movie Faramir and I don't know if I ever will. However, I'm not (I hope) immature and rude, and I think most fans who appreciate Faramir tend not to be the type who lash out wildly. We understand that it's not the actor's fault if the screenwriters screw up.<P>Going back to an earlier topic, I think Arwen's role was originally beefed up not to pacify feminists, but as a way to keep Arwen fresh in the moviegoers' minds. In the book she kind of shows up at the end to be the token bride, and it's only after one reads the appendices that one really appreciates her. PJ & co couldn't risk having Arwen out of the Two Towers movie the way she was in the books and at the beginning didn't intend to use the appendices, so they jury-rigged a way for her to appear. Once they realized what a bad idea it was, they went back to Appendix A and made things a bit more canon. That was much better. <P>Two other changes in Arwen's character that I didn't like were the "tied to the Ring" thing and her vision of Eldarion. The first was just random and added nothing to the movie. ("Arwen's life depends on the fate of the Ring? Yeah, hers and everyone else's, moron!") IMO, the "I'm leaving, oh, wait I'll go back if I get to have a baby" implication cheapened the relationship between Arwen and Aragorn. She should never have considered leaving. Having her do what she did made it look like her elvish biological clock had taken over her mind. ("I'm almost 3000! My ovaries are shriveling!") Ugh.<P>-Lily

[Kronos]

Its truly amazing how volatile some “fans” got when they heard about Arwen being at Helms Deep. I can still remember plenty of “its going to be like Xena Warrior Princess” comments being bandied about. This despite the fact that Eowyn fighting does not make her Xena Warrior Princess.<P>It always amused me that these hard-core fans felt themselves so well qualified to pass judgement on someone else’s interpretation of LOTR, especially considering that, at the time, none of them had ever seen it.

[Bandobras Took]

the shot of her head and arm is not the only one. ther is an other not to long after. she is behind eomir and is swinging at an orc. i think it is posible that P.J. was planing to have her bring arigorn the sward a helms deep but decided to change it to be in trotk

[Lord of Angmar]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>This despite the fact that Eowyn fighting does not make her Xena Warrior Princess. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>While I am certainly not suggesting that Arwen's fighting at Helm's Deep would be in any way akin to Xena: Warrior Princess, I think to be fair, Eowyn's and Arwen's situations are very different, since Eowyn is a shieldmaiden of Rohan and is (obviously) described explicitly by Tolkien as partaking in the events of the Pelennor Fields. Arwen, on the other hand, was used in moderation by Tolkien as a romantic figure, which I think worked very well in the books. Tolkien never once described Arwen as knowing how to wield a blade, let alone as having partaken in any battles, which for me at least makes Arwen fighting at Helm's Deep less credible.<P>-Angmar