Elven Cloaks: magical or not? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Alcerin · 11-28-2002, 07:06 PM

Ok, I have been wondering about this for some time, and it's driving me crazy...Do the Elven cloacks that Aragorn,Legolas and Gimli wear in TTT just regular cloacks, or do they camophlage them like it says in The book? I'm going to get reaally mad at PJ if they aren't magic becuase that is'nt an expensive special effect,it's one of the oldest tricks in the book!!!ohh...and the elven rope too,I wonder what they will do with that....

Tigerlily Gamgee · 11-28-2002, 09:28 PM

Well, I think that they act as camophlage because those orcs ran right by Frodo in Amon Hen when he laid against the tree. I mean, he wasn't really hidden, so the cloak must've had a part to play with that.

Kalimac · 11-28-2002, 11:17 PM

Depends on how you define magic. Galadriel tells Sam (when he asks if her mirror is magic) that she finds that a hard term to understand, since he seems to use it both of her works and of the works of Sauron. All it really would have to mean in this case is a technology which they don't understand and are incapable of reproducing; in this case the cloaks and the rope. I'm sure the rope and cloaks will behave as they did in the book, maybe with a little CGI to make the cloaks hide the wearers a bit more perfectly than ordinary cloaks would, but it may not look terribly spectacular to the moviegoers; after all, there's nothing inherently exciting about seeing a rope slither down or NOT seeing someone in a grassy landscape. It's only by knowing that the rope somehow untied itself, or that there was a person there who was completely hidden by a cloak, that the magic comes in.

-Imrahil- · 11-28-2002, 11:39 PM

They aren't really 'magical'. They do have a 'kind' of magic in them. They were woven by Galadriel and her handmaiders so they definately do have some beneficial qualities given to the wearer.

Orual · 11-29-2002, 11:36 AM

I agree with Kalimac, and rather like that thing that Galadriel said about magic. It's really very difficult to define, isn't it? I mean, if you brought, say, Sam to 21st century Earth (okay, wishful thinking, I know, just bear with me), he wouldn't understand any of our technology. (Heck, I don't understand most of our technology. It could be magic for all I know.) Therefore, it would be inexplicable and, by most peoples' vague grasp of magic, magical.Personally, I think that the elven cloaks weren't magic, persay, like the Rings or Sting or anything. I think that they were just woven very masterfully by the Elves in such a way as to make their wearers difficult to see. Kind of like camo, I guess, only better.~*~Orual~*~

busybee · 12-10-2002, 10:20 AM

Same here,I don't think the cloaks were magic,magic...they were just made of this specially material that helped it to blend in with the surrounding area,for camoufladge....and they were made really well by Galadriel and her Madiens so they should be really special

Rose Cotton · 12-10-2002, 05:04 PM

I also think that they were only sheilded from "unfriendly" eyes. That means that we will see our hero's perfectly because none of us are unfriendly right?

Alcerin · 12-10-2002, 11:01 PM

I like Rose's answer the best, though I still would like it better if the cloacks actually "cloacked" (you know, like the stuff in star trek- nevermind)

Kalimac · 12-10-2002, 11:39 PM

Orual - "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."- Arthur C. ClarkeI think that's the situation here. For the Elves, it's technology. For everyone else, it's magic.

Haelothiel · 02-24-2003, 09:30 PM

I always thought that the cloaks weren't really magic. Not active magic... just a kind of passive magic, just being special. You know how they say everything we make has a little bit of us in it? Well, think of an elf, beautiful, kind of magic but not, quiet, graceful. So how could the things they make not be like them? So naturally they would be special, but elves are too natural to have magic like in actual cloaking spells (oops, that was a bit redundant). At least that's what I think. And you do see that they are that kind of magic in TTT, from comments and how they hide at the gates of Mordor (I hope I don't ruin this for anyone, but it's been out for awhile...)

Himaran · 04-01-2003, 09:34 PM

The cloaks are well-made, but do not make the wearer invisible.Himaran

Lucinda · 04-14-2003, 04:02 AM

I think they repel water!!!!! Im serious! in the boat scene, Sam isnt wet, but there are tiny drops of water on his cloak- they dont seem to sink in!!!

Mattius · 04-14-2003, 05:00 AM

Yes they are magical- how else do you explain this. The fact that when Sam and Frodo fall down the hill near the Black Gate in TTT Frodo has a backpack over the top of his cloak but then MAGICALLY when he wraps the cloak over himself and Sam the backpack dissapears!

OddEvenstar · 04-16-2003, 10:00 AM

To say the Elven cloaks are magical, I think, is a matter of perspective. Under regular circumstances, the cloaks are generally just cloaks. In my opinion, given the right conditions, the Elven-magic will kick in. Anything that is made by Elves seems to have some extent of their magical power, so the cloaks must, too.

The Only Real Estel · 04-18-2003, 04:53 AM

They don't disapear! They look like a huge rock. The cloaks won't turn 'shart nor blade', but they could, shield them from unfriendly eyes...under some circumstances. Obviously the cloaks have their limitations when it comes to illusenment.

Gorwingel · 04-19-2003, 06:27 PM

This is one thing I was wondering. In the scene where Frodo runs down the rocky hillside to where Sam has landed and then Frodo covers the two of them with his cloak so they are not seen by the Easterlings they seem to totally dissapear. But during the scene where Merry and Pippin are crawling away from the orcs (and they are presumably wearing the same cloaks, unless Galadriel gave Frodo an extra special cloak) they are still seen, even though they are covered by the cloaks. Are they not wearing them correctly? Because you would think that the orcs are unfriendly eyes, so they would probably not be seen? that is just something I have been thinking about for a while.

Alcerin · 04-19-2003, 10:55 PM

Thanx for all your replys!!! you know, when I started this discussion, it was right before TTT came out, and i was kinda curious and irritated about this topic because I saw one of the trailors, and the scene with the riders of Rohan just did'nt seem right... <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>And strange too is your raiment. Have you sprung out of the grass? How did you escape our sight? ~~Eomer, The Two Towers, chapter The riders of Rohan~~ <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Obviously if the author intented some sort of magic, PJ could have squeezed a teensy bit in on that scene!!! But i'm whining...so i better go read The Return of the King to console myself... P.S. Good point, Gorwingel

11-28-2002, 07:06 PM	#1
Alcerin Pile O'Bones Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: America's amber waves of grain Posts: 20	Elven Cloaks: magical or not? Ok, I have been wondering about this for some time, and it's driving me crazy...<P>Do the Elven cloacks that Aragorn,Legolas and Gimli wear in TTT just regular cloacks, or do they camophlage them like it says in The book?<BR>I'm going to get reaally mad at PJ if they aren't magic<BR> <BR>becuase that is'nt an expensive special effect,it's one of the oldest tricks in the book!!!<P>ohh...and the elven rope too,I wonder what they will do with that.... __________________ Jesus wept. ~John 11:35~

11-28-2002, 09:28 PM	#2
Tigerlily Gamgee Hostess of Spirits Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Meduseld Posts: 1,055	Well, I think that they act as camophlage because those orcs ran right by Frodo in Amon Hen when he laid against the tree. I mean, he wasn't really hidden, so the cloak must've had a part to play with that. __________________ ~ ExerciseJunky.com (Hobbits fitness of choice!)~ ~Lady of Rohan: An Eowyn Fansite ~ ~The NEW/OLD Barrow Downs Photo Page~

11-28-2002, 11:17 PM	#3
Kalimac Candle of the Marshes Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Flyover Country Posts: 780	Depends on how you define magic. Galadriel tells Sam (when he asks if her mirror is magic) that she finds that a hard term to understand, since he seems to use it both of her works and of the works of Sauron. All it really would have to mean in this case is a technology which they don't understand and are incapable of reproducing; in this case the cloaks and the rope. I'm sure the rope and cloaks will behave as they did in the book, maybe with a little CGI to make the cloaks hide the wearers a bit more perfectly than ordinary cloaks would, but it may not look terribly spectacular to the moviegoers; after all, there's nothing inherently exciting about seeing a rope slither down or NOT seeing someone in a grassy landscape. It's only by knowing that the rope somehow untied itself, or that there was a person there who was completely hidden by a cloak, that the magic comes in. __________________ Father, dear Father, if you see fit, We'll send my love to college for one year yet Tie blue ribbons all about his head, To let the ladies know that he's married.

11-28-2002, 11:39 PM	#4
-Imrahil- Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Dol Amroth, upon the Bay of Belfalas Posts: 259	They aren't really 'magical'. They do have a 'kind' of magic in them. They were woven by Galadriel and her handmaiders so they definately do have some beneficial qualities given to the wearer. __________________ My body is broken. I go to my fathers. And even in their mighty company I shall not now be ashamed. I felled the black serpent. A grim morn, and a glad day, and a golden sunset!

11-29-2002, 11:36 AM	#5
Orual Speaker of the Dead Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Superbia Posts: 868	I agree with Kalimac, and rather like that thing that Galadriel said about magic. It's really very difficult to define, isn't it? I mean, if you brought, say, Sam to 21st century Earth (okay, wishful thinking, I know, just bear with me), he wouldn't understand any of our technology. (Heck, <I>I</I> don't understand most of our technology. It could <I>be</I> magic for all I know.) Therefore, it would be inexplicable and, by most peoples' vague grasp of magic, magical.<P>Personally, I think that the elven cloaks weren't magic, persay, like the Rings or Sting or anything. I think that they were just woven very masterfully by the Elves in such a way as to make their wearers difficult to see. Kind of like camo, I guess, only better.<P>~~Orual~~ __________________ "Oh, my god! I care so little, I almost passed out!" --Dr. Cox, "Scrubs"

12-10-2002, 10:20 AM	#6
busybee Haunting Spirit Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Mirkwood, Lothlorien...dream...actually the middle of nowhere...Mumbai Posts: 89	Same here,I don't think the cloaks were magic,magic...they were just made of this specially material that helped it to blend in with the surrounding area,for camoufladge....and they were made really well by Galadriel and her Madiens so they should be really special __________________ Pleeze does anyone know of a magical doorway or something to Middle Earth!?!?

12-10-2002, 05:04 PM	#7
Rose Cotton Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: A place worse then Mordor........School! Posts: 1,075	I also think that they were only sheilded from "unfriendly" eyes. That means that we will see our hero's perfectly because none of us are unfriendly right? __________________ "There's nothing you can do, Harry... nothing... he's gone."-Remus Lupin "The closer we are to danger, the further we are from harm."-Pippin (now how can you argue with that logic?)

12-10-2002, 11:01 PM	#8
Alcerin Pile O'Bones Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: America's amber waves of grain Posts: 20	I like Rose's answer the best, though I still would like it better if the cloacks actually "cloacked" (you know, like the stuff in star trek- nevermind) __________________ Jesus wept. ~John 11:35~

12-10-2002, 11:39 PM	#9
Kalimac Candle of the Marshes Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Flyover Country Posts: 780	Orual - "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."<P>- Arthur C. Clarke<P>I think that's the situation here. For the Elves, it's technology. For everyone else, it's magic. __________________ Father, dear Father, if you see fit, We'll send my love to college for one year yet Tie blue ribbons all about his head, To let the ladies know that he's married.

02-24-2003, 09:30 PM	#10
Haelothiel Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Bree Posts: 27	I always thought that the cloaks weren't really magic. Not active magic... just a kind of passive magic, just being special. You know how they say everything we make has a little bit of us in it? Well, think of an elf, beautiful, kind of magic but not, quiet, graceful. So how could the things they make not be like them? So naturally they would be special, but elves are too natural to have magic like in actual cloaking spells (oops, that was a bit redundant). At least that's what I think. And you do see that they are that kind of magic in TTT, from comments and how they hide at the gates of Mordor (I hope I don't ruin this for anyone, but it's been out for awhile...) __________________ "Ford! there's an infinite number of monkeys outside who want to talk to us about this script for Hamlet they've worked out!"

04-01-2003, 09:34 PM	#11
Himaran Ash of Orodruin Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Thangorodrim Posts: 777	The cloaks are well-made, but do not make the wearer invisible.<P>Himaran

04-14-2003, 04:02 AM	#12
Lucinda Animated Skeleton Join Date: May 2002 Location: Mirkwood Posts: 41	I think they repel water!!!!! Im serious! in the boat scene, Sam isnt wet, but there are tiny drops of water on his cloak- they dont seem to sink in!!! __________________ The elf hobbit creature. Hmmm, my parents must have had a wee bit of a height difference!!! Mornings would be so much better if they were in the afternoon and a dog is a dog is a dog, but a cat is unique and does not bark.

04-14-2003, 05:00 AM	#13
Mattius Soul of Fire Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: City of Steel Posts: 666	Yes they are magical- how else do you explain this. The fact that when Sam and Frodo fall down the hill near the Black Gate in TTT Frodo has a backpack over the top of his cloak but then MAGICALLY when he wraps the cloak over himself and Sam the backpack dissapears! __________________ A problem shared is a problem halved, so is your problem really yours or just half of someone else's?

04-16-2003, 10:00 AM	#14
OddEvenstar Pile O'Bones Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 15	To say the Elven cloaks are magical, I think, is a matter of perspective. Under regular circumstances, the cloaks are generally just cloaks. In my opinion, given the right conditions, the Elven-magic will kick in. Anything that is made by Elves seems to have some extent of their magical power, so the cloaks must, too. __________________ The hands of a king are the hands of a healer, and so shall the rightful king be known.

04-18-2003, 04:53 AM	#15
The Only Real Estel Raffish Rapscallion Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Far from the 'Downs, it seems :-( Posts: 2,835	They don't disapear! They look like a huge rock. The cloaks won't turn 'shart nor blade', but they could, shield them from unfriendly eyes...under some circumstances. Obviously the cloaks have their limitations when it comes to illusenment.

04-19-2003, 06:27 PM	#16
Gorwingel Beholder of the Mists Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Somewhere in the Northwest... for now Posts: 1,419	This is one thing I was wondering. In the scene where Frodo runs down the rocky hillside to where Sam has landed and then Frodo covers the two of them with his cloak so they are not seen by the Easterlings they seem to totally dissapear. But during the scene where Merry and Pippin are crawling away from the orcs (and they are presumably wearing the same cloaks, unless Galadriel gave Frodo an extra special cloak) they are still seen, even though they are covered by the cloaks. Are they not wearing them correctly? Because you would think that the orcs are unfriendly eyes, so they would probably not be seen? that is just something I have been thinking about for a while. __________________ Wanted - Wonderfully witty quote that consists of pure brilliance

04-19-2003, 10:55 PM	#17
Alcerin Pile O'Bones Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: America's amber waves of grain Posts: 20	Thanx for all your replys!!!<BR>you know, when I started this discussion, it was right before TTT came out, and i was kinda curious and irritated about this topic because I saw one of the trailors, and the scene with the riders of Rohan just did'nt seem right...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>And strange too is your raiment. Have you sprung out of the grass? How did you escape our sight?<br><BR>~~Eomer, The Two Towers, chapter The riders of Rohan~~ <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Obviously if the author intented some sort of magic, PJ could have squeezed a teensy bit in on that scene!!! But i'm whining...so i better go read <i>The Return of the King</i> to console myself... <BR><br><BR>P.S. Good point, Gorwingel __________________ Jesus wept. ~John 11:35~