Methods of Disposal - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Diamond18 · 11-10-2002, 05:39 PM

I was just in a thread that brought up the possibily of knocking Saruman off in TTT instead of Rotk. At first this seems like a terrible deviation from the books. But since I've heard that they are apparently cutting out the Scouring of the Shire, it kind of makes sense to kill him in TTT, since there is nothing left for him to do in RotK, and if they left him alive he'd just be in the way. For more on that, look <A HREF="http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=000159" TARGET=_blank>here.</A>So, imagine that you have decided to let the Scouring go (for whatever reason) and have to come up with a new death for Saruman. How and where would you do it? Or, how do you predict that the movie makers are going to do it?Please don't use this as an occasion to bash Peter Jackson. This is just for if you have any ideas for what to do (or what was done) with Saruman. If you would like to bash PJ, post it in the above mentioned thread.

Morai · 11-10-2002, 05:56 PM

Grima could kill him early, or the ents can dispose of him. Either one sounds logical to me. Too bad PJ had to eliminate the Scouring of the Shire...

Arwen Imladris · 11-10-2002, 05:57 PM

I heard somewhere that Saruman was going to die in one of the gear type things in Orthanc, but we really won't know for sure till the movie comes out.

Kalimac · 11-10-2002, 06:08 PM

I agree with Morai, just have Wormtongue kill him the same as in ROTK - just have him do it early. My suggestion would be that Saruman's demise could take place after Wormtongue throws the Palantir out at Gandalf. Saruman would get very upset, he and Wormtongue would quarrel, and Wormtongue could grab a knife or something similarly nasty and kill Saruman, partly for getting angry and partly out of his own anger at having picked the losing side.

Diamond18 · 11-10-2002, 06:10 PM

Okay, that seems good. I'd like for Wormtounge to still kill him, too. So in that case, how would Wormtounge then die? (In the absence of Hobbit archers)

Arwen Melian · 11-10-2002, 06:15 PM

Oh, no! I don't want them to leave the scouring of the shire out but I guess it would not make sense.

Tigerlily Gamgee · 11-10-2002, 08:05 PM

I read an interview with Christopher Lee saying that he doesn't even know if Saruman dies in TTT. He said they filmed 3 (I think 3) different ways & he doesn't know which was chosen (he didnt' say what they were but he was aware that the spike pic has been floating around).On another note... his name is listed in the credits for all three movies.

Arwen1858 · 11-11-2002, 12:33 AM

In this interview with Ian McKellan, he says that Saruman dies in the third film: <A HREF="http://www.mckellen.com/epost/l010412.htm" TARGET=_blank>McKellan interview</A> Arwen, Queen of Gondor

Rose Cotton · 11-11-2002, 11:00 AM

How about they kick Saruman and Wormtongue out of Orthanc. Then we see a scene with them walking around and are surrounded by the few remaining Urki(sp). Saruman thinks they're there to regroup but then relize they aren't very happy. As the camera slowly pulls away we see the Urki(sp) advancing on him and Wormtougue and we hear them screem.So, in other words. Saruman could be killed by his own creations.[ November 11, 2002: Message edited by: Rose Cotton ]

LePetitChoux · 11-11-2002, 11:37 AM

I guess they could do a Disney Hunchback of Notre Dame type scene, with Saruman hanging out of the window and Wormtongue holding him, then being pulled out too. -Ish.

Knight of Gondor · 11-11-2002, 09:46 PM

I can't provide proof YET (I will try to search and find it again) but I have it from a source that Saruman dies by falling on some sort of spiked wheel. This was just from a raw picture I saw on a website, and I can't for the life of me dig it up again, but I'll try to e-mail the webmaster and find it again. I'm not even sure if this was the decided method of ending Saruman.You're welcome!

Kalimac · 11-11-2002, 11:51 PM

Rose - that sounds a lot like the ending of "The Lion King." ("Ed?"). No reason it shouldn't work for Saruman, though, especially after his staff is broken and all...

Rose Cotton · 11-12-2002, 05:46 AM

Yes, your right it is from the Disney Lion King. I grew up on Disney movies.Of course you don't even have to kill Saruman if your not doing the Scoring of the Shire. Saruman could decide he's going to be good and join everyone in going west so that he can ask for pardon from the Valar.

the phantom · 11-12-2002, 09:17 AM

I would like to see the new and improved Gandalf the White take out Saruman. (But I might rather get a good laugh and see Merry and Pippin double team him)

Arwen Imladris · 11-12-2002, 03:38 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I would like to see the new and improved Gandalf the White take out Saruman. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Another old man fight?

Morai · 11-12-2002, 07:13 PM

Here's some more demented ideas from my brain: 1) Sauron could get sick of the guy and throw him in Mt. Doom 2) He could be so depressed over his broken staff that he commits suicide.

Kalimac · 11-12-2002, 10:18 PM

Morai - hmm...when his staff broke did it break into jagged pieces? Because if it did, he could kill himself by falling on his staff. Or Gandalf the White but Slightly Vicious could do the honors ("Chosen the way of pain, huh? Well, ain't payback a Warg!") No, strike that. Gandalf would never do anything like that. It still seems better to have Wormtongue killing him; it's hard to see Saruman deciding to sacrifice as penance for his own follies. He doesn't think he should ever suffer anything, because he doesn't think he was wrong; he'd always be trying to talk his way out of things up until the last minute.

Diamond18 · 11-13-2002, 12:48 PM

Here is a little something from the man himself:From a letter to Forrest J. Ackerman, on the proposed film treatment of "The Lord of the Rings". (June 1958). <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Z[immerman] has cut out the end of the book, including Saruman's proper death. In that case I can see no good reason for making him die. Saruman would never have committed suicide: to cling to life to its barest dregs is the way of the sort of person he had become. If Z wants Saruman tidied up....Gandalf should say something to this effect: as Saruman collapses under the excommunication: "Since you will not come out and aid us, here in Orthanc you shall stay till you rot, Saruman. Let the Ents look to it!" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>With all due respect to Tolkien, I for one would rather see Saruman killed in some way that just assume that he spent eternity locked up in Orthanc. But I agree with his point about suicide.

Pookabunny · 11-14-2002, 09:05 PM

Grima, the slime-bucket he is, stabs Saruman in the back - thus killing him at the end of ROTK.We'll see how PJ handles this one - but I find it interesting (a nice way of saying disturbing) that he's going to leave out Scouring of the Shire. I bet he'll end it with a wedding, then the departure unto the Havens.BUT Sean Astin's actual daughter is in the film, so ummm... how are we going to have Sam+Rosie Cotton=Elanor without Scouring? oooh the beauty of forums and fine people like you who make these ponderables public...

Diamond18 · 11-15-2002, 02:08 PM

Well, I noticed that even though Alexandra Astin is in RotK, Sarah MacLeod (Rose) isn't. So I'm guessing that all we're going to see of the Shire is a little part where Sam comes back from the Gray Havens, and Elanor runs to meet him in the lane. I've seen this in a still shot.They'll probably have something like "# years later" and show the Gray Havens and then have Sam return.[ November 15, 2002: Message edited by: Diamond18 ]

Pookabunny · 11-15-2002, 05:38 PM

BAH

Diamond18 · 11-15-2002, 11:54 PM

Hmmm...either you don't agree with me or you just don't like the idea. Well, I don't like it either. Bah humbug indeed. They could have filmed even a shortened version of the Scouring just for the Extended DVD...oh now I'm spoiled. Spoiled rotten.

Kalimac · 11-16-2002, 02:48 AM

Diamond - According to IMDB Sarah McLeod is in ROTK. <A HREF="http://us.imdb.com/Credits?0167260" TARGET=_blank>http://us.imdb.com/Credits?0167260</A> I hope they got that right, anyway! After all that effort to get Rosie into the early Shire scenes it would seem a little pointless not to come through with a wedding at the end . And if it helps, I doubt they'll jump from the wedding to the Grey Havens right away - if nothing else, the fact that Alexandra Astin seems to have been about four when the movie was filmed shows that they'll have to let *some* time elapse for Frodo to become ill, etc. Unless, of course, hobbits gestate unusually fast...Grima could still kill Saruman at the end of ROTK, though. TTT would seem more brutally efficient from a filmmaking point of view (get the loose end tied up that much sooner) but all they'd really have to change, now that I think about it, is to transfer Grima's attack from the Shire to the time when the remainder of the Fellowship encounters Saruman on the road and he begs some pipeweed off of Merry. "One thief deserves another" would be an interesting exit line. And of course, when Merry tells Grima "Why don't you leave him?" they could just have Wormtongue respond a little more...immediately.

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 11-16-2002, 03:47 PM

I heard that Eowyn would get to kill Wormtongue (though doubtless from a very unreliable source)I think this would be bad. At the end of RotK, when Grima went mad, killed his master and ran off, the arrows of the Hobbits were the perfect method of killing him. It made me feel actual pity for Wormtongue!Having Eowyn kill him would eliminate all possibility of this pity, as it would be seen as justified and righteous.

Diamond18 · 11-16-2002, 08:03 PM

Thanks for pointing that out, Kalimac. It's been a while since I checked out IMDB's info on RotK, and last time I don't think Rose was listed. When was that...I can't remember. I'm glad anyway. I thought it would really stink to leave Rose out and make us viewers just assume everything.When I read the book I remember thinking that it would be sweet if Éomer got to kill Grima. Imagining Éowyn doing it seems...I don't know...ugly.

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 11-17-2002, 07:24 AM

I guess they could have Grima run off crazy like in the book, only the Rohirrim archers could kill him instead of the Hobbit archers.That would work for me.

engwaalphiel · 11-17-2002, 08:18 AM

the scouring of the shire was such a great chapter that it would be a huge mistake put it in but as this is PJ version events you never know what's going to happen with the whole Saruman issue.

engwaalphiel · 11-17-2002, 12:21 PM

oh typo it would be a shame NOT to put it in . thats all

Rose Cotton · 11-17-2002, 12:39 PM

I've though about how PJ might end the movie. I think it makes sense if after the main story is over someone narrirates what happens to the Fellowship after the war of the ring. I'm not sure who would narrarate it. Galadriel might since she did the prologue. Or perhaps Frodo or Sam. This would include Rose and Sam getting married and having Elanor, the Grey Havens and the end of Aragorn and Arwen's love story. There would be bits about what happened to Legolas and Gimli, how Sam became mayor and eventually joined Frodo in the west and what happened to Pippin and Merry.I'm not saying PJ is going to do this. I havn't heard any rumors that suggest this. It just makes the most sense.

Morai · 11-17-2002, 05:14 PM

That seems very logical Rose. Warning: You're about to hear about one of my silly daydreams!: How about Frodo actually falls in love with someone! (I'm asuming it was top seceret and they eloped in the grey havens.) It's really to bad in the book he didn't. (Maybe cause it might have been his wedding finger that was bitten off.) Of course, I've hadn't heared anywhere about this. It just popped out of my head.

Lady_Báin · 11-18-2002, 10:39 AM

well.... Wormtongue could smash Saruman over the head with the palantir then, trying to get rid of the evidence, would throw it out the window, thus tieing into the story quite nicely. OOOOOO Rose you have awoken an idea in my brain: Gandalf narrates it and says something about the mysterious world of middle earth and hints that he is some mysterious power and that he is going to some mysterious place in a mysterious manner and then the movie ends on a very mysterious note, then the movie leaves you uh.... mysteriousized and rabid for anything tolkien Perfect huh![ November 18, 2002: Message edited by: Lady_Báin ]

11-10-2002, 05:39 PM	#1
Diamond18 Eidolon of a Took Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: my own private fantasy world Posts: 3,460	Methods of Disposal I was just in a thread that brought up the possibily of knocking Saruman off in TTT instead of Rotk. At first this seems like a terrible deviation from the books. But since I've heard that they are apparently cutting out the Scouring of the Shire, it kind of makes sense to kill him in TTT, since there is nothing left for him to do in RotK, and if they left him alive he'd just be in the way. For more on that, look <A HREF="http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=000159" TARGET=_blank>here.</A><P>So, imagine that you have decided to let the Scouring go (for whatever reason) and have to come up with a new death for Saruman. How and where would you do it? Or, how do you predict that the movie makers are going to do it?<P>Please don't use this as an occasion to bash Peter Jackson. This is just for if you have any ideas for what to do (or what was done) with Saruman. If you would like to bash PJ, post it in the above mentioned thread. __________________ All shall be rather fond of me and suffer from mild depression.

11-10-2002, 05:56 PM	#2
Morai Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2002 Location: Where young people go to retire Posts: 709	Grima could kill him early, or the ents can dispose of him. Either one sounds logical to me. Too bad PJ had to eliminate the Scouring of the Shire... __________________ "So why the safe distance, this curious look? Why tear out single pages when you can throw away the book? Why pluck one string when you can strum the guitar? MeWithoutYou http://fortyfifthparadox.com

11-10-2002, 05:57 PM	#3
Arwen Imladris Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: In a box with a fox Posts: 1,347	I heard somewhere that Saruman was going to die in one of the gear type things in Orthanc, but we really won't know for sure till the movie comes out. __________________ "Wake up! Wake up! Wake up, sleepies, we must go, yes, we must go at once."

11-10-2002, 06:08 PM	#4
Kalimac Candle of the Marshes Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Flyover Country Posts: 780	I agree with Morai, just have Wormtongue kill him the same as in ROTK - just have him do it early. My suggestion would be that Saruman's demise could take place after Wormtongue throws the Palantir out at Gandalf. Saruman would get very upset, he and Wormtongue would quarrel, and Wormtongue could grab a knife or something similarly nasty and kill Saruman, partly for getting angry and partly out of his own anger at having picked the losing side. __________________ Father, dear Father, if you see fit, We'll send my love to college for one year yet Tie blue ribbons all about his head, To let the ladies know that he's married.

11-10-2002, 06:10 PM	#5
Diamond18 Eidolon of a Took Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: my own private fantasy world Posts: 3,460	Okay, that seems good. I'd like for Wormtounge to still kill him, too. So in that case, how would Wormtounge then die? (In the absence of Hobbit archers) __________________ All shall be rather fond of me and suffer from mild depression.

11-10-2002, 06:15 PM	#6
Arwen Melian Wight Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Sometimes Imladris....sometimes Mirkwood...other times ....Lothlorien Posts: 141	Oh, no! I don't want them to leave the scouring of the shire out but I guess it would not make sense. __________________ Maiden of Rivendell "Anything to get away from the evil monkey in my bedroom." Fine! I admit it. I am a supporter of Agent Elrond. Now would you please leave me be?

11-10-2002, 08:05 PM	#7
Tigerlily Gamgee Hostess of Spirits Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Meduseld Posts: 1,055	I read an interview with Christopher Lee saying that he doesn't even know if Saruman dies in TTT. He said they filmed 3 (I think 3) different ways & he doesn't know which was chosen (he didnt' say what they were but he was aware that the spike pic has been floating around).<P>On another note... his name is listed in the credits for all three movies. __________________ ~ ExerciseJunky.com (Hobbits fitness of choice!)~ ~Lady of Rohan: An Eowyn Fansite ~ ~The NEW/OLD Barrow Downs Photo Page~

11-11-2002, 12:33 AM	#8
Arwen1858 Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Gondor Posts: 516	In this interview with Ian McKellan, he says that Saruman dies in the third film: <A HREF="http://www.mckellen.com/epost/l010412.htm" TARGET=_blank>McKellan interview</A><BR>Arwen, Queen of Gondor __________________ Will Turner: "This is either madness or brilliance." Jack Sparrow: "It's remarkable how often those two traits coincide." ~ Pirates of the Caribbean

11-11-2002, 11:00 AM	#9
Rose Cotton Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: A place worse then Mordor........School! Posts: 1,075	How about they kick Saruman and Wormtongue out of Orthanc. Then we see a scene with them walking around and are surrounded by the few remaining Urki(sp). Saruman thinks they're there to regroup but then relize they aren't very happy. As the camera slowly pulls away we see the Urki(sp) advancing on him and Wormtougue and we hear them screem.<P>So, in other words. Saruman could be killed by his own creations.<p>[ November 11, 2002: Message edited by: Rose Cotton ] __________________ "There's nothing you can do, Harry... nothing... he's gone."-Remus Lupin "The closer we are to danger, the further we are from harm."-Pippin (now how can you argue with that logic?)

11-11-2002, 11:37 AM	#10
LePetitChoux Vegetable of Doom Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: London Posts: 720	I guess they could do a Disney Hunchback of Notre Dame type scene, with Saruman hanging out of the window and Wormtongue holding him, then being pulled out too. -Ish. __________________ je suis une bonne odeur

11-11-2002, 09:46 PM	#11
Knight of Gondor Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Kentucky Posts: 744	I can't provide proof YET (I will try to search and find it again) but I have it from a source that Saruman dies by falling on some sort of spiked wheel. This was just from a raw picture I saw on a website, and I can't for the life of me dig it up again, but I'll try to e-mail the webmaster and find it again. I'm not even sure if this was the decided method of ending Saruman.<P>You're welcome! __________________ Eagerly awaiting the REAL Return of the King - Jesus Christ! Revelation 19:11-16

11-11-2002, 11:51 PM	#12
Kalimac Candle of the Marshes Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Flyover Country Posts: 780	Rose - that sounds a lot like the ending of "The Lion King." ("Ed?"). No reason it shouldn't work for Saruman, though, especially after his staff is broken and all... __________________ Father, dear Father, if you see fit, We'll send my love to college for one year yet Tie blue ribbons all about his head, To let the ladies know that he's married.

11-12-2002, 05:46 AM	#13
Rose Cotton Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: A place worse then Mordor........School! Posts: 1,075	Yes, your right it is from the Disney Lion King. I grew up on Disney movies.<P>Of course you don't even have to kill Saruman if your not doing the Scoring of the Shire. Saruman could decide he's going to be good and join everyone in going west so that he can ask for pardon from the Valar. __________________ "There's nothing you can do, Harry... nothing... he's gone."-Remus Lupin "The closer we are to danger, the further we are from harm."-Pippin (now how can you argue with that logic?)

11-12-2002, 09:17 AM	#14
the phantom Beloved Shadow Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: The Stadium Posts: 5,971	I would like to see the new and improved Gandalf the White take out Saruman. (But I might rather get a good laugh and see Merry and Pippin double team him) __________________ the phantom has posted. This thread is now important.

11-12-2002, 03:38 PM	#15
Arwen Imladris Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: In a box with a fox Posts: 1,347	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I would like to see the new and improved Gandalf the White take out Saruman. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><B>Another</B> old man fight? __________________ "Wake up! Wake up! Wake up, sleepies, we must go, yes, we must go at once."

11-12-2002, 07:13 PM	#16
Morai Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2002 Location: Where young people go to retire Posts: 709	Here's some more demented ideas from my brain:<BR>1) Sauron could get sick of the guy and throw him in Mt. Doom<BR>2) He could be so depressed over his broken staff that he commits suicide. __________________ "So why the safe distance, this curious look? Why tear out single pages when you can throw away the book? Why pluck one string when you can strum the guitar? MeWithoutYou http://fortyfifthparadox.com

11-12-2002, 10:18 PM	#17
Kalimac Candle of the Marshes Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Flyover Country Posts: 780	Morai - hmm...when his staff broke did it break into jagged pieces? Because if it did, he could kill himself by falling on his staff. Or Gandalf the White but Slightly Vicious could do the honors ("Chosen the way of pain, huh? Well, ain't payback a Warg!") <P>No, strike that. Gandalf would never do anything like that. It still seems better to have Wormtongue killing him; it's hard to see Saruman deciding to sacrifice as penance for his own follies. He doesn't think he should ever suffer anything, because he doesn't think he was wrong; he'd always be trying to talk his way out of things up until the last minute. __________________ Father, dear Father, if you see fit, We'll send my love to college for one year yet Tie blue ribbons all about his head, To let the ladies know that he's married.

11-13-2002, 12:48 PM	#18
Diamond18 Eidolon of a Took Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: my own private fantasy world Posts: 3,460	Here is a little something from the man himself:<P>From a letter to Forrest J. Ackerman, on the proposed film treatment of "The Lord of the Rings". (June 1958).<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Z[immerman] has cut out the end of the book, including Saruman's proper death. In that case I can see no good reason for making him die. Saruman would never have committed suicide: to cling to life to its barest dregs is the way of the sort of person he had become. If Z wants Saruman tidied up....Gandalf should say something to this effect: as Saruman collapses under the excommunication: "Since you will not come out and aid us, here in Orthanc you shall stay till you rot, Saruman. Let the Ents look to it!" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>With all due respect to Tolkien, I for one would rather see Saruman killed in <I>some</I> way that just assume that he spent eternity locked up in Orthanc. But I agree with his point about suicide. __________________ All shall be rather fond of me and suffer from mild depression.

11-14-2002, 09:05 PM	#19
Pookabunny Wight Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: The only place that matters! Posts: 181	Grima, the slime-bucket he is, stabs Saruman in the back - thus killing him at the end of ROTK.<P>We'll see how PJ handles this one - but I find it interesting (a nice way of saying disturbing) that he's going to leave out Scouring of the Shire. I bet he'll end it with a wedding, then the departure unto the Havens.<P>BUT Sean Astin's actual daughter is in the film, so ummm... how are we going to have Sam+Rosie Cotton=Elanor without Scouring? <P>oooh the beauty of forums and fine people like you who make these ponderables public... __________________ "I love you more than I did the week before, I discovered alcohol" - Bare Naked Ladies

11-15-2002, 02:08 PM	#20
Diamond18 Eidolon of a Took Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: my own private fantasy world Posts: 3,460	Well, I noticed that even though Alexandra Astin is in RotK, Sarah MacLeod (Rose) <I>isn't.</I> So I'm guessing that all we're going to see of the Shire is a little part where Sam comes back from the Gray Havens, and Elanor runs to meet him in the lane. I've seen this in a still shot.<P>They'll probably have something like "# years later" and show the Gray Havens and then have Sam return.<p>[ November 15, 2002: Message edited by: Diamond18 ] __________________ All shall be rather fond of me and suffer from mild depression.

11-15-2002, 05:38 PM	#21
Pookabunny Wight Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: The only place that matters! Posts: 181	BAH __________________ "I love you more than I did the week before, I discovered alcohol" - Bare Naked Ladies

11-15-2002, 11:54 PM	#22
Diamond18 Eidolon of a Took Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: my own private fantasy world Posts: 3,460	Hmmm...either you don't agree with me or you just don't like the idea. Well, I don't like it either. Bah humbug indeed. They could have filmed even a shortened version of the Scouring just for the Extended DVD...oh now I'm spoiled. Spoiled rotten. __________________ All shall be rather fond of me and suffer from mild depression.

11-16-2002, 02:48 AM	#23
Kalimac Candle of the Marshes Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Flyover Country Posts: 780	Diamond - According to IMDB Sarah McLeod is in ROTK.<BR> <A HREF="http://us.imdb.com/Credits?0167260" TARGET=_blank>http://us.imdb.com/Credits?0167260</A> <P>I hope they got that right, anyway! After all that effort to get Rosie into the early Shire scenes it would seem a little pointless not to come through with a wedding at the end . And if it helps, I doubt they'll jump from the wedding to the Grey Havens right away - if nothing else, the fact that Alexandra Astin seems to have been about four when the movie was filmed shows that they'll have to let some time elapse for Frodo to become ill, etc. Unless, of course, hobbits gestate unusually fast...<P>Grima could still kill Saruman at the end of ROTK, though. TTT would seem more brutally efficient from a filmmaking point of view (get the loose end tied up that much sooner) but all they'd really have to change, now that I think about it, is to transfer Grima's attack from the Shire to the time when the remainder of the Fellowship encounters Saruman on the road and he begs some pipeweed off of Merry. "One thief deserves another" would be an interesting exit line. And of course, when Merry tells Grima "Why don't you leave him?" they could just have Wormtongue respond a little more...immediately. __________________ Father, dear Father, if you see fit, We'll send my love to college for one year yet Tie blue ribbons all about his head, To let the ladies know that he's married.

11-16-2002, 03:47 PM	#24
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	I heard that Eowyn would get to kill Wormtongue (though doubtless from a very unreliable source)<P>I think this would be bad. At the end of RotK, when Grima went mad, killed his master and ran off, the arrows of the Hobbits were the perfect method of killing him. It made me feel actual pity for Wormtongue!<P>Having Eowyn kill him would eliminate all possibility of this pity, as it would be seen as justified and righteous. __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

11-16-2002, 08:03 PM	#25
Diamond18 Eidolon of a Took Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: my own private fantasy world Posts: 3,460	Thanks for pointing that out, Kalimac. It's been a while since I checked out IMDB's info on RotK, and last time I don't think Rose was listed. When was that...I can't remember. I'm glad anyway. I thought it would really stink to leave Rose out and make us viewers just assume everything.<P>When I read the book I remember thinking that it would be sweet if Éomer got to kill Grima. Imagining Éowyn doing it seems...I don't know...ugly. __________________ All shall be rather fond of me and suffer from mild depression.

11-17-2002, 07:24 AM	#26
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	I guess they could have Grima run off crazy like in the book, only the Rohirrim archers could kill him instead of the Hobbit archers.<P>That would work for me. __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

11-17-2002, 08:18 AM	#27
engwaalphiel Haunting Spirit Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: The edge of nowhere Posts: 89	the scouring of the shire was such a great chapter that it would be a huge mistake put it in but as this is PJ version events you never know what's going to happen with the whole Saruman issue. __________________ Estel............. Some have it more than others. "Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë!

11-17-2002, 12:21 PM	#28
engwaalphiel Haunting Spirit Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: The edge of nowhere Posts: 89	oh typo it would be a shame NOT to put it in . thats all __________________ Estel............. Some have it more than others. "Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë!

11-17-2002, 12:39 PM	#29
Rose Cotton Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: A place worse then Mordor........School! Posts: 1,075	I've though about how PJ might end the movie. I think it makes sense if after the main story is over someone narrirates what happens to the Fellowship after the war of the ring. I'm not sure who would narrarate it. Galadriel might since she did the prologue. Or perhaps Frodo or Sam. This would include Rose and Sam getting married and having Elanor, the Grey Havens and the end of Aragorn and Arwen's love story. There would be bits about what happened to Legolas and Gimli, how Sam became mayor and eventually joined Frodo in the west and what happened to Pippin and Merry.<P>I'm not saying PJ is going to do this. I havn't heard any rumors that suggest this. It just makes the most sense. __________________ "There's nothing you can do, Harry... nothing... he's gone."-Remus Lupin "The closer we are to danger, the further we are from harm."-Pippin (now how can you argue with that logic?)

11-17-2002, 05:14 PM	#30
Morai Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2002 Location: Where young people go to retire Posts: 709	That seems very logical Rose. Warning: You're about to hear about one of my silly daydreams!:<BR>How about Frodo actually falls in love with someone! (I'm asuming it was top seceret and they eloped in the grey havens.) It's really to bad in the book he didn't. (Maybe cause it might have been his wedding finger that was bitten off.) Of course, I've hadn't heared anywhere about this. It just popped out of my head. __________________ "So why the safe distance, this curious look? Why tear out single pages when you can throw away the book? Why pluck one string when you can strum the guitar? MeWithoutYou http://fortyfifthparadox.com

11-18-2002, 10:39 AM	#31
Lady_Báin Wight Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Peterborough, England Posts: 250	well.... Wormtongue could smash Saruman over the head with the palantir then, trying to get rid of the evidence, would throw it out the window, thus tieing into the story quite nicely. <P>OOOOOO Rose you have awoken an idea in my brain: Gandalf narrates it and says something about the mysterious world of middle earth and hints that he is some mysterious power and that he is going to some mysterious place in a mysterious manner and then the movie ends on a very mysterious note, then the movie leaves you uh.... mysteriousized and rabid for anything tolkien Perfect huh!<p>[ November 18, 2002: Message edited by: Lady_Báin ] __________________ pæling.