Arvedui

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Just a what if question. What if the Gondorian lords had accepted Arvedui’s claim for kingship over Gondor after the slaying of Ondohir and his sons? Arvedui was a mighty lord, and who how the history of the Third age would have transpired if he had become king. No Earnur riding to Minas Morgul and all of Arvedui’s descendants would’ve descended from both Isildur (through Arvediu) and Anarion (through Firiel, his wife, the last descendant of Ondohir who was still alive ). Malbeth, the seer, was reported to say that if they took him as king then there kingdoms would return to their former glories, if they didn’t then they would wain.

Here are Malbeth’s comments when Arvedui was born.

“ Arvedui you shall call him, for he will be the last in Arthedain. Though a choice will come to the Dunedain, and if they take the one that seems less hopeful,, then your son will change his name and become king of a great realm. If not, then much sorrow and much lives of men shall pass, until the Dunedain arise and are united again.”

LOTR; Appendix A;

So what do you suppose would happen if Arvedui became king? Or would he suffer the same fate as Earnur, or would the power of the Dunedain be simply too strong for Sauron whose armies could be vanquished? But, you would have to destroy the ring for Sauron to go away forever.

[littlemanpoet]

An intriguing question. We must assume that Malbeth's words were true, as far as they went. Gondor would achieve new glory, at what dates I am not sure, not having my appendices before me. Arnor and Gondor would be united. This leaves a few more questions to ponder:

1. Were the Rohirrim in Rohan by this time? If so, what status would they have had? If not, would they have been welcome?

2. How long would this new kingdom have lasted?

3. What would have happened to the Witch King?

4. How would the Ring have affected this alternate course?

5. How would a united Gondor have affected Elves and Dwarves; and Hobbits?

Hmmm... more questions than answers. Sorry. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Kuruharan]

Greetings lmp! Long time no see!

Arvedui never struck me as being a particularly strong character. The impression that I have of him is that he was rather weak. I personally doubt that he had what it takes to keep things together. However, if he had gone south, he might have engendered some children who were of sterner stuff.

1. Were the Rohirrim in Rohan by this time? If so, what status would they have had? If not, would they have been welcome?

They were not there yet, so who knows.

2. How long would this new kingdom have lasted?

Ummm, see next question.

3. What would have happened to the Witch King?

He would probably not overrun the northern kingdom because Arvedui would have brought help from the south. However, Angmar might have still been hanging around draining the Dunedain's resources.

4. How would the Ring have affected this alternate course?

Indeterminate.

5. How would a united Gondor have affected Elves and Dwarves; and Hobbits?

Probably not that much.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Most of the Rohhiim lived in Rhovanion. An alliance with them, the Dunedain, Lothlorien, Rivnendell, Cirdan, Thranduil and co, would have been very powerful indeed, and one wonders how Sauron would've got rid of them. The Dwarves were still disoriantated after recently losing Moria.

[littlemanpoet]

Kuruharan: Greetings, thou invincible Dwarf!

1. Since the Rohirrim were not yet in end-of-Third-Age Rohan, they would have been natural enemies of orcs, wargs, and the Necromancer in Rhovanion. That does not necessitate an alliance with Dwarves or Elves. Such an alliance would have to have been forged by means of leadership from Gondor, with the Elves and Dwarves agreeable. Such agreeability would require either a charismatic King in Gondor or a grave need, and maybe both. The Witch King of Angmar could be construed as serving as the need, but we no so little about the character of the line between Arvedui and Aragorn. Clearly, that line was volatile enough to provide as vigorous a descendant as Aragorn yet weak as Arvedui. At least in terms of character. So there's much leeway there.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Actually, a lot of the Northmen (pre-Rohhirm)had an alliance with the Longbeard Dwarves in the Second age and were siad to be very good friends with them. Many of them had been intergrated into Godnor's army/population in the tiem of King Valakar. There was great friendship between the Dunedian and the Northmen, since the Northmen were relatives of the Dunedian, being descendants of the Marachian tribes who settled in Rhovanion during the march of men to Beleriand, though most of the Dunedian of Gondor/Arnor were of Beorian descent. The marrying of Eldakar to a princess of the Northmen lead to the disastorous kinstrife.

[Numenorean]

Kuru: "Arvedui never struck me as being a particularly strong character. The impression that I have of him is that he was rather weak."

So many people assume that Arvedui was too weak to become High King of the United kingdom, but that may not be the case. Most of his life was an ongoing war with the Witch King, a state of affairs that would surely harden the disposition of any who lived through such times. He clearly did not have the military/economic/seafaring might of Gondor at his disposal and coupled with a fundamental lack of manpower its a wonder that his line survived at all - but survive it most certainly did, with vast implications for the Race of Man.
Arvedui wisely bid his sons take refuge with Cirdan in Lindon, whilst he covered their flight and held out until the very last upon the North Downs. Only then did he flee North with the Ring of Barahir and the Palantiri of Amun-Sul and Annùminas. Is this weak?
I always deduced that it was a mix of aristocratic provincial pride and shortsighted nepotism that led Gondor to promote a King from within their own ranks (Eänil II)– over the rightful and perhaps wronged Arvedui. But I am open to other interpretations of course...

[Kuruharan]

You're welcome to your opinion, of course.

always deduced that it was a mix of aristocratic provincial pride and shortsighted nepotism that led Gondor to promote a King from within their own ranks (Eänil II)– over the rightful and perhaps wronged Arvedui.

To a degree, you are right, but I think you phrase it badly. I don't think that nepotism is the right word to use in this case. And try to look at it from Gondor's perspective. They were not yet reduced to such straits that they would welcome the rule of a man who amounted to little more than an outlander, who had the appearance of trying to use his claim to the throne of Gondor to save his own skin.

And Arvedui did not behave sensibly when his kingdom fell. He should have gone to Cirdan himself. He also should not have disregarded the advise of the Snowmen when they were informing him of the dangers of their own climate. It is a good idea to listen to the advise of people who know what they are talking about.

Plus, Arvedui was rather high-handed and arrogant in his manner toward the Snowman. Actually he was almost insulting. That alone makes me doubt that he was a particularly good king.

On the other hand, Earnil was victorious in war, and was referred to as being "a wise man and not arrogant."

The Gondorians could only go with the information that they had, like most people. They made what seemed like the better choice (and on the immediate face of things it probably was), who can do more?

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Kuruharan-Elwe was insulting to Beren-does that make him a bad king? After Arvedui's claim for kingship was turned down, Tolkien states that no other descendant of his had the strength to claim kingship over Gondor, until Aragorn.

[Kuruharan]

Elwe was insulting to Beren-does that make him a bad king?

Are you sure you want to open that can o' worms in this thread?

Tolkien states that no other descendant of his had the strength to claim kingship over Gondor, until Aragorn.

So...?

[doug*platypus]

Before I forget, here's a link to another interesting thread on the Númenórean kingdoms in exile. Watch out for staunch dwarven monarchists. Although this thread is another one of those what-if threads, I think that the two kingdoms had a very interesting history, and are worthy of exploration.

I always deduced that it was a mix of aristocratic provincial pride and shortsighted nepotism that led Gondor to promote a King from within their own ranks

Yes *sigh* nepotism is rife in many, many monarchies. For some reason they always seem to give positions of authority to their family members.

[Numenorean]

Good points Kuru & Indy.
Kuru, you claim that:
"They were not yet reduced to such straits that they would welcome the rule of a man who amounted to little more than an outlander, who had the appearance of trying to use his claim to the throne of Gondor to save his own skin."
To say Arvedui was only trying to save his own skin seems harsh and generally unbefitting of the House of Elendil to me. His claim was legitimate, justifiable and strong, through both his noble bloodline and via marriage to Gondors very own Princess Firiel. Arvedui must have been viewed by most Gondorians as alot more than a mere 'outlander', but most Gondorians did not have the power to elect anyway, I thought that was left to an elite ruling caste of soldiers and politicians?
Remember Castamir the Usurpers bloody civil war was mainly due to an insular and elitist body within the council of Gondor that refused to accept a non-Gondorian Queen.
When Indy said:
”Tolkien states that no other descendant of his had the strength to claim kingship over Gondor, until Aragorn.”
This indicates that far from being weak and unworthy, Arvedui was more mentally and physically capable of the Re-united Kingship than any who followed, except of course Aragorn.
As for his (subjective) arrogance, does confidence not seem like arrogance to those who have neither? If Arvedui was so high-handed with the Snowmen, why did he then more than repay their kindness with a priceless heirloom like the Ring of Barahir, it would surely have been just as easy to give them trinkets, coins or less.
I just feel its about time someone stood in Arveduis corner ;-)

[Kuruharan]

To say Arvedui was only trying to save his own skin seems harsh and generally unbefitting of the House of Elendil to me.

The context of that statement is the statement before it that says, "try to look at it from Gondor's perspective." That is not necessarily my own opinion. It is just a possible interpretation of the situation. You have to admit that a jaundiced view of this matter, and the Gondorians certainly had that, would probably think that this would be part of the motivation of Arvedui.

Arvedui must have been viewed by most Gondorians as alot more than a mere 'outlander'

That statement I'm afraid that I'm just going to have to flatly disagree with. The realms had been severed for a few centuries. (Actually, a lot of centuries). Relations between the two nations were not really close for a long time before. There were bound to be cultural differences between the two nations by this point. And there was the simple fact that Arvedui was coming from far away. That alone would make him an outlander in some eyes. Regardless of his marital ties.

As for his (subjective) arrogance, does confidence not seem like arrogance to those who have neither? If Arvedui was so high-handed with the Snowmen, why did he then more than repay their kindness with a priceless heirloom like the Ring of Barahir, it would surely have been just as easy to give them trinkets, coins or less.

And the words that he used to them essentially boiled down to, "this thing is more valuable than you are and you don't even know it." Not very courteous, especially to the people that saved your life. (And were trying to save it again.) And I doubt that he had much else left to give them.

does confidence not seem like arrogance to those who have neither

This is a man who failed in all of his major undertakings. Should he have any bold confidence left by this point? Humble gratitude would have suited the situation better.

I just feel its about time someone stood in Arveduis corner

Be of good cheer. Most people have always been on your side in this matter. It's poor Earnil who usually gets rained on.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

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I just feel its about time someone stood in Arveduis corner
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Get's the ring ready. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] (Sorry for that terrible joke.)

Also, Arvedui applied for the kingship because of his wife, the last living heir of Onodhir, and therefore the rightful Queen. Far from being a stranger wouldn't you say? When he questioned the Gondorian council about this, they said nothing. But that being said, I still like Earnur more then Arvedui.

[Numenorean]

Ok ok, fair points Kuru I didnt realise public opinion was already with Arvedui the Enigmatic, I have just always been intrigued by his colourful life (and controversial death).
One thing I gotta question you on though:

"The realms had been severed for a few centuries."

Severed you say, adding to Arveduis image as a stranger, outlander or whatever. But what of the Palantíri? Elendil brought seven(?) with him to ME for good communication and information over the vast distances that lay between the realms. To the decision making hierachys of Gondor & Arnor, Palantir conferences must've ensured a degree of familiarity and cultural comparrison?

One other point you made about his discourteous approach in dealings with the Lossoth must also be viewed in context. Arvedui had just fought practically to the last man against Angmar,losing his realm and people in the process. Ultimately in defence of not just the Dunedain, but of all free-folk, which the Lossoth undoubtably were. In short, to use another mans words:
"By the blood of my people are your lands kept safe"
Some might say he had good cause to be more than a little bitter with these folk, all safe and non-comitted in their snug icecaves, whilst the rest of the North suffered valiantly resisting Angmars evil.

Indy:

"that being said, I still like Earnur more then Arvedui"

I think Earnur is an awesome character too, and I've often pondered his mindset when he made the decision to ride alone to Mordor for single combat with Angmar. Imagine coming up to the gates of Morgul, whoa! any thoughts?

[ January 23, 2003: Message edited by: Numenorean ]

[Inderjit Sanghera]

If only Earnur's stupid bloody horse didn't run from the Witchking. Earnur had a lot of guts. He was pretty stupid as a result. O.K, maybe not stupid, how about...impetous?

[Kuruharan]

To the decision making hierachys of Gondor & Arnor, Palantir conferences must've ensured a degree of familiarity and cultural comparrison?

Umm...I doubt it. For whatever reason, the palantiri do not seem to have been used much to maintain communications between the realms, even though that was part of their intent. And for whatever other reasons the relations between the two realms did decay. Arnor was busy with its disintegration and Gondor was concerned with its glory and then later with its own problems. They just really don't seem to have had that much to do with each other. It is certainly true that Gondor did precious little to aid Arnor (or what was left of it) during the days of its power, when it was certainly possible for them to have done something to help. They just don't seem to have been particularly concerned with each other.

That is one of the problems that I see people having with the palantiri. People are excessively impressed by them and assume that they were used for all kinds of things. In this particular case, the evidence seems to suggest otherwise.

Ultimately in defence of not just the Dunedain, but of all free-folk, which the Lossoth undoubtably were. In short, to use another mans words:
"By the blood of my people are your lands kept safe"
Some might say he had good cause to be more than a little bitter with these folk, all safe and non-comitted in their snug icecaves, whilst the rest of the North suffered valiantly resisting Angmars evil.

A few points about the Lossoth.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that they probably lived one of the most miserable existances on Middle earth.

They were most certainly not snug in their ice caves (a contradiction in terms). They did not live in caves but in something akin to Eskimo villages. Also, for the most part, they lived on the northern peninsula of the Ice Bay of Forochel. What Arvedui ran across was actually only a camp.

They were, just by the nature of their environment, poor, resource starved, and there were likely very few of them. They apparently had little armament, judging from the motive given to them by Tolkien. There was little that they could contribute to a glorious defense of the North. They lacked the capability.

And as for them being "Free People," the information about them is a little dubious. They were in regions formerly dominated by Morgoth, and usually only peoples affiliated with Morgoth seem to have dwelled in the far North. They are also called "strange and unfriendly." Shades of the description of the Dunlanders. Judging from their situation I think that the Lossoth probably just wanted to be left alone. And considering their environment, even Sauron was probably not going to bother them too much, aside from the usual signs of submission. What did they have besides that he could want? And for that matter, it would not even be easy for him to get to them, since most of his servants had a disinclination to be near the sea.

I've often pondered his mindset when he made the decision to ride alone to Mordor for single combat with Angmar. Imagine coming up to the gates of Morannon, whoa! any thoughts?

The man was rather unbalanced with a very flimsy grasp of his duties.

And he went to Minas Morgul, not the Morannon.

[Numenorean]

Well I thought I'd get back to this after some re-reading, and I really gotta call you up on a few things in your last post Kuruharan.

Kuru "the palantiri do not seem to have been used much to maintain communications between the realms"

I didnt say they were used 'much', I said they must've ensured a degree of familiarity and cultural comparrison. And they did, births, deaths and important events were all related via Palantiri to varying degrees throughout the 3rd age, though over time they were mentioned less.

UT P.403 "Until the passing of the Kings they were not sinister secrets.Their use involved no peril, and no king or other person authorized to survey them would have hesitated to reveal the source of his knowledge of the deeds or opinions of distant rulers, if obtained through the stones"

Kuru, you state - "People are excessively impressed by them (Palantiri)and assume that they were used for all kinds of things"

The Palantíri are impressive things by any reckoning. I dont know what you mean by people assume that they were used for 'all kinds of things', I've read plenty and besides the odd throwing incident, its pretty obvious what they are about man.

With regards to the Lossoth, just because they lived in lands of snow and ice doesnt necessarily equate to them having as you say "one of the most miserable existances on Middle Earth"
Using that rationale are all Inuit and Lapplanders living out miserable existances too? No way, snowy climes are great, sure its a hard dangerous life, but given the choice between living with the Lossoth or living(dieing) with or under the yoke of Sauron, its not even a close call to me.

[ January 29, 2003: Message edited by: Numenorean ]

[Kuruharan]

I was obviously not disagreeing with anything said in the UT.

I didnt say they were used 'much', I said they must've ensured a degree of familiarity and cultural comparrison.

To ensure a real degree of cultural familiarity requires that they be used (for lack of a better word) "much." That is assuming that cultural contact is what they desired, and my opinion is that it was not. The communication of births, deaths and other great events, if cultural features were exchanged at all, would probably rather quickly take the line of "Oh look at the quaint customs of those folk from far away!"

The palantiri cannot be used to make an argument for the "cultural closeness" of Gondor and Arnor (relating to the succession of Arvedui, which is how this whole thing got started). That's just not what they were for. They seem, in some regards, to have been something almost akin to spy satellites.

The Palantíri are impressive things by any reckoning.

I never said they were not. I said that people are excessively impressed with them. "And by all kinds of things" I meant things like maintaining a close and tight-knit empire, which they singularly failed to do. And yet, the palantiri are brought up time and time again to sustain theories that either go against the evidence or just don't have anything to do with them.

With regards to the Lossoth, just because they lived in lands of snow and ice doesnt necessarily equate to them having as you say "one of the most miserable existances on Middle Earth"

Okay, I'll go with that. Let's say that they lived one of the "hardest and most dangerous" existances on Middle earth.

[Numenorean]

Ok Kuruharan, I meant no disrespect to you or yours dude, on the contrary I've enjoyed our sparring match banter over and around the contentious issue of Arvedui.
Maybe we were at crossed wires with our syntax and arguments, but with so little textual evidence either way,(in relation to Arvedui per se) its always tempting to engage in some good intentioned speculation.
And I aint even gonna get started about one of my alltime Tolkien faves - Earnur - being viciously slandered as an "unbalanced man with a flimsy grasp of his duties" Heheh, no worries Kuru, I agree only to disagree with ya on that one.
Until the next time then Dwarf Lord...

[Kuruharan]

but with so little textual evidence either way

But that's what makes it fun.