Will Turin become a Valar? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Iarhen · 11-07-2003, 08:36 PM

I was reading info about the Dagor Dagorath, and it is said that Eonwe, Tulkas and Turin will the 3 that will kill Morgoth.

And then it is said that Turin's name will be counted among the Valar...

So, my quesiton is.. How can Turin become a Valar if the Valar are children born right out of Eru's thought?

Finwe · 11-07-2003, 08:40 PM

It never says specifically that Turin became a Vala, it merely says that he was ranked among them. The two aren't necessarily the same thing. He just attained a much higher status than he normally would have been in.

Westerly Wizard · 11-07-2003, 09:52 PM

"But of Men in that day the prophecy speaks not, save of Turin only, and him it names among the Gods" (Shaping of Middle-Earth). This line is a bit ambiguous. It could mean that Turin is simply said to be fighting alongside the Gods, but it also can mean that Turin is listed as one of the Gods. This second seems less likely, but it is actually supported very strongly in the immediate precursor to this text, the Tale of Turambar and the Foaloke in BoLT 2: "Yet now the prayers of Urin and Mavwin [Hurin and Morwen] came even to Manwë, and the Gods had mercy on their unhappy fate, so that thoses twain Túrin and Nienori enterd into Fôs’ Almir, the bath of flame, even as Urwendi [Arien] and her maidens had done in ages past before the first rising of the Sun, and so were all their sorrows and stains washed away, and they dwelt as shining Valar among the blessed ones, and now the love of that brother and sister is very fair; but Turambar indeed shall stand beside Fionwë in the Great wrack, and Melko and his drakes shall curse the sword of Mormakil."

In other words, here it is explicit that Turin is a God, and not just a man named among the Gods, in the coming of the End.

Of course, in the end, this doesn't matter. The role of Turin in the Dagor Dagorath seems to have disappeared from Tolkien's writings slowly. In the early 1950s, in the Annals of Aman, there is still a reference connecting Menelmacar, Turin, and the Dagor Dagorath, but a few years later Tolkien wrote the note which ends the published Quenta SIlmarillion, which illustrates that the Second Prophecy of Mandos has essentially disappeared.

[ November 07, 2003: Message edited by: Westerly Wizard ]

Finwe · 11-07-2003, 09:58 PM

I'm going by the published Quenta Silmarillion, because the Professor had a penchant for changing things around at the last minute, and his notes (i.e. the History of Middle-earth) would probably be a bit hard to understand compared to the Sil.

Westerly Wizard · 11-07-2003, 10:01 PM

In the published Silmarillion then, it does not say anything of Turin having a role after his death, no mention of him having a part in the Dagor Dagorath, and all we know about the Dagor Dagorath is just that there will be a battle at the end of the world in which Melkor will re-enter the world and Arda will be remade.

The Ninth Valar · 11-09-2003, 01:47 AM

From my reading of the Silmarillion, and recent listen to the audiobook before going to sleep, I have to concur that Turin's role is effectively finished as of his death. What comes later has not been revealed, according to published works, and even if the Second Prophecy was to canon, I think it meant that Turin will essentially be a hero of the final battle, not a Valar. He was created as a man, his spirit is that of a man, and his role would be to seek redemption for the failings of men, not gain immortality or great power. Consider it penance.

Finwe · 11-09-2003, 08:17 AM

I also think that Turin suffered the most at Morgoth's hand, and if there was any one person who deserved to avenge himself and his family upon Morgoth, it would be Turin. Granted, many other people suffered, but not as much as Turin and the House of Hurin did.

Olorin_TLA · 11-09-2003, 10:37 AM

Ninthvala: Not penance, venegeance. That's his role - to avenge, on behalf of all Menm the abominations which Morgoth performed on them.

Amarie of the Vanyar · 11-09-2003, 01:04 PM

In HoME 12, Christopher Tolkien gives a long explanation of the evolution of Turin's role after his death from the Dagor Dagorath to the War of Wrath [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Quote:

... unless the prophecy of Andreth the Wise-woman should prove true, that Túrin in the Last Battle should return from the Dead, and before he left the Circles of the World for ever should challenge the Great Dragon of Morgoth, Ancalagon the Black and deal him the death-stroke.
Note 17; The Problem of Ros; HoME 12 The Peoples of Middle Earth

From this point on, Christopher explains the different versions of the earlier story, which I summarize here:

Tale of Turambar (Lost Tales II): Túrin is 'Valarized' and dwells with the Valar, until the Last Battle, in which he will fight beside Fionwë and against Morgoth
Earlier Silmarillion, Sketch of the Mythology 1920s.(HoMe 4): In the Last Battle, Fionwë fights with Morgoth and the spirit of Túrin is beside him. And it is Túrin who will kill Morgoth with his sword.
Quenta (HoME 4): Tulkas, with Fionwë at his right and Túrin at his left, will fight with Morgoth. And it is Túrin who will kill Morgoth with his sword. And Túrin is named among the Gods
Quenta Silmarillion (HoME 5): There are two differences with respect to the previous text: Túrin comes from the Halls of Mandos, and he is named among the sons of the Valar.
Quenta Silmarillion (HoME 11): The differences are that Túrin returns from the Doom of Men (not from the Halls of Mandos), and the sentence saying that he is named among the sons of the Valar is marked with a large X.
HoME 12: the prophecy of Andreth that I quoted before; in which Turin returns from the Dead and figths against Ancalagon, in the War of Wrath (the Last Battle of the Elder Days).

Olorin_TLA · 11-09-2003, 05:37 PM

So, does it seem that he returns, or that he in the end makes no appearence in the Last Battle? [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

Aiwendil · 11-09-2003, 06:20 PM

Westerly Wizard wrote:

Quote:

Of course, in the end, this doesn't matter. The role of Turin in the Dagor Dagorath seems to have disappeared from Tolkien's writings slowly. In the early 1950s, in the Annals of Aman, there is still a reference connecting Menelmacar, Turin, and the Dagor Dagorath, but a few years later Tolkien wrote the note which ends the published Quenta SIlmarillion, which illustrates that the Second Prophecy of Mandos has essentially disappeared.

It's not quite as clear-cut as that, however, for there is in fact a reference to Dagor Dagorath dating from 1972, in the fragment in alliterative verse connected with the Istari material (in UT).

So it would seem unless this is mere forgetfulness, that some sort of prophecy remained. There is also some implication in "Myths Transformed" that Morgoth would eventually return. At this late stage, however, the prophecy could not have included Turin, unless the prophecy of Andreth was rejected.

Perhaps the end of the Valaquenta, to which you referred, does not necessarily mean the rejection of the prophecy. It could be that the prophecy was no longer "the Second Prophecy of Mandos" and thus ". . . but they have not revealed it, and it is not declared in the dooms of Mandos" is not contradicted. Or perhaps there are differing traditions.

Westerly Wizard · 11-09-2003, 08:50 PM

I don't deny that the idea of Dagor Dagorath certainly appears in the later writings of Tolkien--Aiwendil has of course shown two such places. However, these later references are in the forms of small hints of a Dagor Dagorath at the end of the world. A last battle in which Melkor returns. This is as far as they go. The comment in the text of the Valaquenta I think is still indicative that a prophecy of what occurs in Dagor Dagorath has essentially disappeared. It is still known that it will occur, but the form in which it will take place and the outcome is no longer known or prophesized.

Finwe · 11-10-2003, 05:26 PM

I think that we can safely say that most (if not all) of the great heroes of the First Age will fight in the Dagor Dagorath.

11-07-2003, 08:36 PM	#1
Iarhen Wight Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Laurelindorenan Posts: 225	Will Turin become a Valar? I was reading info about the Dagor Dagorath, and it is said that Eonwe, Tulkas and Turin will the 3 that will kill Morgoth. And then it is said that Turin's name will be counted among the Valar... So, my quesiton is.. How can Turin become a Valar if the Valar are children born right out of Eru's thought? __________________ "In place of a Dark Lord you will have a Queen! Not dark but beatiful and terrible as the Dawn! Treacherous as the sea! Stronger than the foundations of the Earth! All shall love me and despair!" --- Galadriel when tempted by the One Ring.

11-07-2003, 08:40 PM	#2
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	It never says specifically that Turin became a Vala, it merely says that he was ranked among them. The two aren't necessarily the same thing. He just attained a much higher status than he normally would have been in. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

11-07-2003, 09:52 PM	#3
Westerly Wizard Haunting Spirit Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 72	"But of Men in that day the prophecy speaks not, save of Turin only, and him it names among the Gods" (Shaping of Middle-Earth). This line is a bit ambiguous. It could mean that Turin is simply said to be fighting alongside the Gods, but it also can mean that Turin is listed as one of the Gods. This second seems less likely, but it is actually supported very strongly in the immediate precursor to this text, the Tale of Turambar and the Foaloke in BoLT 2: "Yet now the prayers of Urin and Mavwin [Hurin and Morwen] came even to Manwë, and the Gods had mercy on their unhappy fate, so that thoses twain Túrin and Nienori enterd into Fôs’ Almir, the bath of flame, even as Urwendi [Arien] and her maidens had done in ages past before the first rising of the Sun, and so were all their sorrows and stains washed away, and they dwelt as shining Valar among the blessed ones, and now the love of that brother and sister is very fair; but Turambar indeed shall stand beside Fionwë in the Great wrack, and Melko and his drakes shall curse the sword of Mormakil." In other words, here it is explicit that Turin is a God, and not just a man named among the Gods, in the coming of the End. Of course, in the end, this doesn't matter. The role of Turin in the Dagor Dagorath seems to have disappeared from Tolkien's writings slowly. In the early 1950s, in the Annals of Aman, there is still a reference connecting Menelmacar, Turin, and the Dagor Dagorath, but a few years later Tolkien wrote the note which ends the published Quenta SIlmarillion, which illustrates that the Second Prophecy of Mandos has essentially disappeared. [ November 07, 2003: Message edited by: Westerly Wizard ] __________________ "He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure."

11-07-2003, 09:58 PM	#4
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	I'm going by the published Quenta Silmarillion, because the Professor had a penchant for changing things around at the last minute, and his notes (i.e. the History of Middle-earth) would probably be a bit hard to understand compared to the Sil. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

11-07-2003, 10:01 PM	#5
Westerly Wizard Haunting Spirit Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 72	In the published Silmarillion then, it does not say anything of Turin having a role after his death, no mention of him having a part in the Dagor Dagorath, and all we know about the Dagor Dagorath is just that there will be a battle at the end of the world in which Melkor will re-enter the world and Arda will be remade. __________________ "He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure."

11-09-2003, 01:47 AM	#6
The Ninth Valar Pile O'Bones Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: The other side of over there Posts: 23	From my reading of the Silmarillion, and recent listen to the audiobook before going to sleep, I have to concur that Turin's role is effectively finished as of his death. What comes later has not been revealed, according to published works, and even if the Second Prophecy was to canon, I think it meant that Turin will essentially be a hero of the final battle, not a Valar. He was created as a man, his spirit is that of a man, and his role would be to seek redemption for the failings of men, not gain immortality or great power. Consider it penance. __________________ This is not for you.

11-09-2003, 08:17 AM	#7
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	I also think that Turin suffered the most at Morgoth's hand, and if there was any one person who deserved to avenge himself and his family upon Morgoth, it would be Turin. Granted, many other people suffered, but not as much as Turin and the House of Hurin did. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

11-09-2003, 10:37 AM	#8
Olorin_TLA Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Gardens of Lórien, Valinor. Posts: 420	Ninthvala: Not penance, venegeance. That's his role - to avenge, on behalf of all Menm the abominations which Morgoth performed on them. __________________ "For I am Olórin! And Olórin means me!" ELENDIL! - Join "Forth Tolkiengas!"

11-09-2003, 05:37 PM	#10
Olorin_TLA Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Gardens of Lórien, Valinor. Posts: 420	So, does it seem that he returns, or that he in the end makes no appearence in the Last Battle? [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] __________________ "For I am Olórin! And Olórin means me!" ELENDIL! - Join "Forth Tolkiengas!"

11-09-2003, 08:50 PM	#12
Westerly Wizard Haunting Spirit Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 72	I don't deny that the idea of Dagor Dagorath certainly appears in the later writings of Tolkien--Aiwendil has of course shown two such places. However, these later references are in the forms of small hints of a Dagor Dagorath at the end of the world. A last battle in which Melkor returns. This is as far as they go. The comment in the text of the Valaquenta I think is still indicative that a prophecy of what occurs in Dagor Dagorath has essentially disappeared. It is still known that it will occur, but the form in which it will take place and the outcome is no longer known or prophesized. __________________ "He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure."

11-10-2003, 05:26 PM	#13
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	I think that we can safely say that most (if not all) of the great heroes of the First Age will fight in the Dagor Dagorath. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.