new title for film #3???

Does anyone know about the controversy hitting the message boards at another rival site which claims that there is a movent afoot to change the title of THE RETURN OF THE KING. This is not the stupid petition of the TWO TOWERS thing but something new.<P>It looks like there is some rumors being spread that the title refers to anti-American feelings held by the good Professor. Examples of things in the books were cited.<P>Some people are taking this as a joke while others are very angry and taling it very seriously.<P>The point was made that if you take both Sauron and Saruman - the obvious baddies in the epic series - they both have the letters for USA in their names. Sam - a stand in for the American symbol Uncle Sam - is a servile person who is a toadie. Others hve brought up other things as well.<P>Was tolkien an converted Anglophile who took potshots at America through his books? Should the title of film three be changed to something like RETURN TO FREEDOM or possibly LET FREEDOM RING (in keeping with the ring theme)? Has anybody else read this stuff at tolkienonline???

[Lush]

...Hey, while we're at it, can we please shut down all Burger Kings? The fact that they have the word "King" in their name strikes me as anti-democratic and offensive. Whenever I drive past one, on the way to my weekly book-burning session, I cry on my cousin's (who is also my beloved husband) shoulder. How <I>dare</I> they? <p>[ May 12, 2002: Message edited by: Lush ]

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

Hah! As an American, I can think of a lot worse things than insulting the US, even if it were true.<P>Look, at the time this written, the pro-USA sentiment was rising high. Britain was getting the c*** bombed out of them, and we sent them arms they couldn't afford to pay for in a deal brokered by Roosevelt. Even before Pearl Harbor. The US was isolationist before WWII. We didn't have a political presence all over the world. It was US-who? Don't they make cars? Export lumber?<P>The controversy, though this is the first I've heard of it, is yet another example of reframing the books in terms of current events and sentiment.

[Sharkû]

And yet another allegorical interpretaion of the works arises. This time, the exact opposite of the old and more common allegory, and one that is even less credible (if that is at all possible).<BR>Also, it shows how desperate one is with making up arguments for a cause that has no arguments for it, when one rearranges letters in names, even more so in cases where the names are invented painstakingly by a philologist. Saruman, however, is a name that is possible to be four times as old as the United States. Definitely an anti-Vinland statement by those Anglo-Saxons.<P>I could go on, but I don't want to grant the person who started this obvious hoax (by someone who has obviously not the slightest grasp of the Legendarium beyond LotR, if of that at all) the satisfaction he craves for, albeit I think it necessary to rebuke such silly demands for the more gullible.<P>Oh, and 'Let Freedom Ring' is a movie I would never watch. Ouch.

[The Half-Hobbit]

Whenever I drive past one, on the way to my weekly book-burning session, I cry on my cousin's (who is also my beloved husband) shoulder. How dare they? <P>Ooooooooooohh *ouch!* Good one!

[Nufaciel]

You know, I really wish these people who start these things would get a life! It seems that they've forgotten or are just too dumb to know that the title refers to the fact that Gondor's King has returned to rule when Aragorn takes the throne. It's just someone who wants to start trouble, and they aren't worth the time.

[Nevtalathiel]

Well, if this American was insulted by the title and referances of the book, am I, being British, allowed to be insulted at their clear dislike for British people?<P>Ugh, some people are so unbelievably stupid!

[Tigerlily Gamgee]

Who's clear dislike for British people??? If you mean Americans as a whole that is not true. I actually would rather live in England (not to slam my own country, but...)<P>As for this re-naming thing.<BR>People really need to let things go. I mean, it is ridiculous that anyone would think of that to begin with. Or, if they think of it why can't they just keep their mouths shut.<BR>People in the world today get offended by stupid, stupid things!!!! I can't stand it. People need to grow backbones or something.<BR>This reminds me of when my Aunt was talking about how her church was banning Harry Potter because of Sorcery.<BR>Uhg!!!! I am usually not an angry person, but sometimes people just need to let bygones be bygones.<BR>Sorry, can I just go live on another planet?

[ElanorGamgee]

This title thing is getting rediculous. I'll never understand why some people won't grow up and stop trying to read hidden insults into everything. It's rampant paranoia. And the theory on Sam being a mockery of "Uncle Sam" makes no sense at all, as he is one of the most loved and respected characters of the book because of his loyalty and bravery.

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

Heh. I guess we can be open-minded to <I>All</I> interpretations. And Paul is dead. You know that, don't you?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> can I just go live on another planet <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Come and live in England, we're not that easily offended

[Auriel Haevasawen]

Some people are dreadfully touchy.<BR>Back when I first got into Tolkien there was a huge debate whether it was allegorical of the Second world war with the Fellowship being emblematic of the Allies and Sauron and Saruman Hitler and Mussollini (can't spell him even though I share his birthday).You can read what you wish into any text. Look at the different Christian denominations all stemming from The New Testament. Chill out. It's a book, a story, not set out to offend. Tolkien said himself that he merely set out to create fairy stories with a root in British folklore as most fairy stories are based in European stuff. <BR>Heigho, I'd like to add I'm not offended by anyone from anywhere except a person who harbours hate for their fellow man.<BR>Chill everyone, please.

[Kalimac]

Oh, this is wonderful . Almost as good as all those convoluted cryptograms people keep finding in Shakespeare's sonnets which prove that Francis Bacon or the Earl of Oxford actually wrote them. (Not to mention the fact that Oxford had three daughters, as did King Lear. Voila! What could be clearer? ).<P>Sadly this whole anti-American analogy breaks down rather quickly. Sure, Sam starts out deferring to Frodo in everything ("toady" to me implies more active fawning than Sam would ever do) but notice how in the end he not only is the ONLY person to stick by Frodo, but he also singlehandedly saves Frodo's neck, not the mention the Ring that goes around it. (WWII parallel, anyone?) Hardly what an anti-American author would do. Also, while Tolkien had probably heard of "Uncle Sam" it probably wasn't the first thing that leapt to mind when he thought of the US. More likely the war came to mind, all things considered. And it's not like he would have been seeing "I want YOU" posters in Britain, anyway...<P>And oh yes, "Let Freedom Ring" would be a worse title than "Attack of the Clones" - or at least it would be a photo finish. It sounds like the title of a deservedly unsuccessful musical from about 1937 or so. Not good.<p>[ May 14, 2002: Message edited by: Kalimac ]

[Rimbaud]

Everybody knows Shakespeare was written by committee, Han Solo and Princess Leia are peculiar euphemisms, Elvis is alive and well and working in a fish & chip shop in Lower Dulwich, Michael Jackson's nose falls off when he sneezes, Kubrick faked the moon landings, J. Edgar Hoover had JFK assassinated, Ronald Reagan was really a woman, Margaret Thatcher really a woman, Michael = Janet, Mulder's sister simply went out to get some cigarettes, Tolkien was a fierce anti-American, kissing frogs turns them into princes, giving myrrh to babies is a sensible gift and I got some sleep last night.<P>Oh, I didn't .<p>[ May 14, 2002: Message edited by: Stephanos ]

[Tigerlily Gamgee]

Gee Stephanos, I forgot about all those *slaps forhead*. How could I have forgotten that Reagan was really a woman. Geez! <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Come and live in England, we're not that easily offended <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Thanks. I can tell that just by reading English magazines! Although, I must go to my English friend for help explaining the slang!

[dragongirlG]

Some people are just so ignorant that I am disgusted to even be part of the human race sometimes. They need to get their facts straight!

[akhtene]

Perhaps some people just want to leave a trace in history ? when unable to surpass, they dissect, analyse, explain to the 'ignorant' and and finally get all the credit for enlightening the humankind ...<BR>Maybe it's out of place here, but what the hell did they change the title of "Harry Potter" film for?<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Margaret Thatcher really a woman <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>LMAO Steph, and John Major was not a cardboard cut-out!

[Mithadan]

Just fyi, Calimac, I've seen a thread on another board which argues that Elvish words are really a slightly disguised version of Hebrew and that LoTR contains numerous "Elvish" biblical references and even prophecies. Of course the person who developed this "theory" doesn't actually know any Hebrew...

[The Half-Hobbit]

"Some people are just so ignorant that I am disgusted to even be part of <BR>the human race sometimes."<BR>So true, but it seems to be the only game in town <P>The thing is, people who raise stupid stinks like this and the whole "Harry Potter is evil" issue have probably not even read the books. So here they are fighting a pointless crusade while children starve, bigotry still reasrs it's head all over the world, wars, disease, ignorange, and malice still need to be taken out! Grrr....so much energy wasted that might have been put to real USE!

I think some people are just not happy with anything. They all want something to complain about. It's pretty annoying, but we can't change that, just like they can't change the names of books that have been written over fifty years ago.

[VanimaEdhel]

My response: yeah, yeah, and 'N Sync's really dead and Elvis is living in Massachusetts (recent rumors that I've heard).<P>Let's wait and see, just like we have to with every other rumor!<P>I doubt it will be changed...if they aren't changing "The Two Towers", then they won't change this one!<P>So: worry not!

[Arwen Imladris]

Think of all the flak that PJ and people got for changeing the things from FOTR (Tom Bombadil, Glorfindel). Do you really think that he would change the name of the last movie????<P>BTW I am Canadian

[Aosama, the Wandering Star]

Tiger: when you go to that other planet, can I come with you?<BR>I mean, seriously. This is Ridiculous. Sam a toady?!? If Sam supposedly represented MY country, I'd be proud! (I'm Canadian, btw)<BR>Has anyone heard of Book-a-Minute? It has very funny one-minute summaries of books, and Harry Potter was included. Their "editor's note" went something like this(and this is not word for word, sorry):<BR>"There seems to be two different versions of Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone; one which is experienced when one has read the book, and a second which is experienced when one has <B>not</B> read the book..." (the second being the ridiculous 'harry potter is evil!' edition!)<BR>But, I highly doubt (thankfully) that these changes will ever come to pass. Not-so-thankfully, that (rather ignorant) person who started this petition will be allowed to go on telling people stuff that is, quite frankly, (my fav word) ridiculous!<p>[ May 17, 2002: Message edited by: Aosama, the Wandering Star ]

[Ms. Took]

Thats the stupidest thing I've ever heard! I would write pages of how annoyed I am, but the stupidity of these people is so overwhelming that I am speechless. Some people are such idiots its amazing.

In case it has not yet been discovered, the entire "change the name of RETURN OF THE KING was a huge parody on the abusrd stupidty of the petition for film 2. It is truly amazing that some people could not see that from the start. It was as if Orson Wells just did his WAR OF THE WORLDS on Sunday night and came back on Friday with and even more outrageous show and people still took it seriously.<P>The whole renaming controversy is simply stupidity at its lowest level. Lets let this dog die a quick death okay?

[Enedhil]

No...no...NO NO NONONONONONONONOOOOOOO<P><BR>!!NO!!<P><B>!!!NO!!!</B><P>*runs around in circles throwing tantrum*

[Kalessin]

Whatever the validity of the original assertion, this is a hilarious thread. I am gratified by the rebirth of satire (especially in Lush) .<P>As the song says "Irony is the last refuge of the ... British". But who dares now to say Americans can't iron? <P>Peace

[Luinsewiel]

Would Christopher Tolkien even <I>let</I> them change the name of the book? I mean hasn't he kind of stepped into his father's shoes so to speak. He might just forbid them to release the movie without it's proper title. By the way i was born on september 11th does that make me a terrorist? (I'm from Canada too)<BR>-Luin

[Lossenavariel]

Jeesshhhhhh... some people need a life.... ugh.

[Gimli Son Of Gloin]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Jeesshhhhhh... some people need a life.... ugh. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>My thoughts exactly.<P>The entire thing is so stupid! People that worry about things like that should be shipped off to Antarctica with enough rations for a month, there's not enough room for them in civilized parts of this world. Following the philosophy of those fools we wouldn;t be able to walk down the street wearing pants and still be "ethical". Seriously, change the name of a 50 year old classic because it contains the word "King"? <P>My friend was born on April 20th(Adolf's Hitler's birthday). Does that make him a Nazi?

[Kalla]

You know, this just goes to show what a transcendental wonderful piece of work Tolkien wrote truly was! Look at how many different interpretations and little stories people can find within its pages. (Albeit some rather...radical) As for anti american sentiment...hm..well...if the most people have to worry about is whether or not the title may have refered to some insult in the past, then I think National Security has actually worked. Interesting that some people would think it could lead to the next Red Scare...I'm surprised they haven't called Tolkien a communist...although I am sure I spoke too soon, for someone has surly said that amongst all these rumors. :P I prefer to look at the brighter side however and admire the fact that people can find so many different interpretations and how this book sparks imagination to take flight to new heights.

[Melephelwen]

"My friend was born on April 20th(Adolf's Hitler's birthday). Does that make him a Nazi?"<P>If it does, they would have a problem... Andy Serkis, who gives voice to Gollum has the same birthday. If that makes hima nazi ... Ooooooh nooooo now they can't release the last two movies!!!<P>"I would write pages of how annoyed I am, but the stupidity of these people is so overwhelming that I am speechless."<P>I couldn't have said it better!!! <P>*Mele

[Veritas]

Quote:<BR>"Would Christopher Tolkien even let them change the name of the book? I mean hasn't he kind of stepped into his father's shoes so to speak. He might just forbid them to release the movie without it's proper title. By the way i was born on september 11th does that make me a terrorist? (I'm from Canada too)"<BR>-Luin<P>The problem is that the Tolkiens have sold the rights of the movies. They receive no revenue from them and so I am afraid that they have nothing to say about it either. <BR>But I don't think it would happen, it's just some rediculous babbling of a few ignorants.

[Melephelwen]

Hopefully...<P>*Mele

[Luinsewiel]

Hmmmm but aha!**trying to make it work** they sold the rights to "the return of the king" not "let freedom ring"(It doesn't really work I know but it sounded ok-ish in my head). They would never do it I know but I think some people have wayyyy to much free time on there hands. They should do something constructive with that time like picking up the litter on the road or raising salmon fry or hey! writing a pro-american book, not wasting it on stuff like this.

[Calencoire]

Oh geez... I'm an American, and I have never once thought so deeply into LOTR to scrutinize and find anything that might have to do with TOlkien hating America? That would be foolish to change the name. How can they focus on that when there is so much more to the book than that? To me that is foolishness and stupidity. The ones who came up with that probaly have to much stuff on their minds.

[*Varda*]

Grr well i suppose they'd never do it (but i'd kill them if they did!)<P>And why does everyone want to live in England all of a sudden? Scotland is even less touchy about stuff like this lol

[Daniel Telcontar]

Come to Denmark! We are the oldest Kingdom in Europe, so we don't care about any king returning. We have enough already. And we are so peaceful ( the danish revolution happened without bloodshed) so we wouldn't care if anyone insulted us with their books. We would just drink some coffee and pretend like nothing.

[NazgulNumber10]

thats the most friggin stupid thing i ever heard. yeah cange the title, infact lets just change the whole world so nothing is offencive. People who start things like that really **** me off. I mean come on, and with somethings overprotective parents can be like "oh we can't let our kids see that, it will scare them". please. kids are exposed to so much it dosen't even matter. and if not, they will see it later. You can't live your life in a little bubble( unless you have too). Go out, and screw the inoffencive, live your life to the fullest, who knows, you may wake up one day and realize you wasted your life.<BR>