What did CHRISTOPHER Tolkien think of the movie? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

03-05-2002, 06:45 AM

Has he said? Please post if so, thanks.

***Mithadan*** · 03-05-2002, 07:54 AM

As I understand it, he refused to see the Movie. In fact, a family squabble may have arisen. His son favors the movies as well as expanding the granting of rights to others to "use" JRRT's writings. The son, whose name eludes me, says that Christopher has not spoken to him in more than a year.

the_master_of_puppets · 03-05-2002, 03:50 PM

i heard he cut the son out the will because it was against his wishes 4 the movie 2 go ahead.weird bugger if u ask me!

03-05-2002, 03:57 PM

This all sounds very severe. I don't think Christopher is much of a fun guy.

Aralaithiel · 03-05-2002, 04:47 PM

How sad, if that is the case!

Elven-Maiden · 03-05-2002, 05:12 PM

Yeah, I heard that he disinherited his son too.... Poor guy! And to think, J.R.R. wanted to get into Hollywood too!

Marileangorifurnimaluim · 03-05-2002, 07:51 PM

Christopher Tolkien supported Ralph Bakshi's Lord of the Rings (1978) which could explain his feelings. Also, Ralph was sitting on the film rights to the story hoping for another shot, and a few clever industry lawyers managed to get the rights for PJ without telling Ralph. Shooting was long underway before he heard about it, and whatever they did was perfectly legal, if not terribly ethical. So Ralph got his sour grapes in as well.Since Christopher has his father's book enshrined, and doesn't think even his own writings can do them justice, I doubt he will ever like any movie/play/radio production/etc.

Marileangorifurnimaluim · 03-05-2002, 07:55 PM

I guess it's the difference between the artist and the historian. An artist wants their work to be seen, appreciates other artists' take and vision. An historian wants everything preserved, just as it is thank you, under glass, on non-acidic hypo-allergenic paper, with special non-UV lighting if possible.Christopher's very much an historian of his father's work.

Kalimac · 03-05-2002, 09:56 PM

Saw an article on this in "The Daily Telegraph" a few months ago, can't find it now though...apparently Christopher Tolkien was quoted as saying that he was against the idea of the movies in general, since he didn't think his father's vision could ever be properly translated into film (maybe the Bakshi experience shook him up a little). So he probably hasn't seen the movie, just disapproves of the idea. The article also mentioned that his son Simon was not on speaking terms with his father but that this situation apparently predated the movies by several years and had a lot of other factors contributing to it. This seems pretty believable - Christopher Tolkien did a great job of collating his father's writings etc. but he's also plainly not the most easygoing guy in the world. Easy to see where there could be some conflict.

Glenethor · 03-06-2002, 12:18 PM

Why do I have a pic of 'Golf at the Beautiful Tree-Garth of Orthanc' on my reply screen?Yeah, I've read the reports too. I think there is another reason for Christopher's reticence, but that would only be speculation. I don't think his behaviour is very adult, or, may I add, very Christian.I just read an interview with Bakshi, but he wouldn't discuss the machinations that went on regarding the rights to LoTR.

Rosa Underhill · 03-06-2002, 01:48 PM

Christopher strikes me as being a bit like his father and I don't think J.R.R. really would have approved of the films either. I'm reading "On Fairy Stories" right now and I'm at the part where he says literature is a much truer form of fantasy than anything one could do visually, like movies, plays and illistrations, no matter how believable. The only reason Bakshi had the LotR film rights was because, at some point, J.R.R. had to sell them to pay off a debt. Poor guy. (Tolkien, not Bakshi. I have no pity for that man, not only for what he did to LotR but for further spreading the illusion that all "furries" are perverts. Stupid Fritz the cat or whatever his name was!)

firncristwen · 03-06-2002, 03:50 PM

That is horrid. If I had had the sheer luck of Christopher...having goddam Tolkien for my father, hearing his bedtime stories and being in his wonderful presence for so long I would sure as hell want and give full support to the books' story being developed into quality production like the Peter Jackson movies and such. Because really, they don't dishonor the literature or make us less antsy to read the trilogy or "The Hobbit". If anything, we return radiant from the movie theater to reread our favorite chapters. Shame on Christopher!

Lush · 03-06-2002, 08:19 PM

I've never met Chris Tolkien, and I don't want to be too judgemental, but I have to say, he doesn't sound like the warmest ray of sunshine. While the movies may never live up to his expectations, they're still only "a bit of fun." Lighten up, Chris! We feel your pain, but come on, smoke some pipeweed, relax, and don't have a nosebleed over it.

Birdland · 03-06-2002, 11:56 PM

If all of this is true, I think it's the saddest thing I've ever heard. To break contact with your own children because of a piece of art, no matter how beautiful, is just plain wrong.And it's not like the book hasn't been merchandised to death, and portrayed on film in less-than-flattering light. Who cares? The book stands alone, and always will. No movie or Happy Meal toy is going to change that. When Christopher Tolkien is ready to depart this world, I don't think his last thoughts will be "I wish Peter Jackson hadn't cast Liv Tyler in the role of Arwen".

Maeglin · 03-07-2002, 01:07 PM

Aye, sad it is. I do understand how Christopher feels I would probably feel the same if I was the son of JRR. I wouldn't hang up my life on it, thoe. Cutting the connection to ur seems really childich just beacause of some stupid movie. If he doesn't want to see the movie then he could just refuse to do it, drink his tea, smoke his pipe an accept that he has a son that happends to like the film.

Rosa Underhill · 03-07-2002, 03:02 PM

Just so everyone knows: it wasn't the LotR films that seperated Christopher and his son. I don't know what did but they weren't speaking to each other for a while before the latest movie came out. A film, no matter how good/bad, cannot divide a family like that. I think there some other, deeper issues at work here.

03-08-2002, 11:27 AM

I agree with Rosa and raise my glass to Christopher. What else would you expect from me?I write songs. If someone wanted to take my songs and express them in a form that I felt was poor, artistically speaking, I would not approve. Therefore, if I had a son that knew I felt this way, and he was then subjected to watching others turn my music into something that I believed was a lesser art form (poor art), I would expect him to be a little miffed.I think this serves as a fair analogy to the situation discussed in this thread.Sincerely, Rhudladion

goldwine · 03-08-2002, 05:09 PM

I feel a bit sorry for Christopher - he was very much in a damned if I do, damned if I don't situation. In protecting his father's work he would naturally question the artistic integrity of a film maker (rightly so!) and it is true that the film is not a vaild reflection of Tolkien's ME in any real way. On the other hand.. to keep his father's work alive in the current generations, movies are a good way to stimulate interest in the real thing! Multitudes of people are now reading Tolkien's works with relish because the movie has whetted their appetite. I think the previous comments about Chris being a historian are extremely relevant - he has to be a "purist" for all the right reasons. ME is more than his inheritance from father to son, it belongs to all of us!

Enedhil · 03-08-2002, 05:17 PM

I heard somewhere that Tolkien had sold film rights to someone for a reeeeeally teeny weeny sum of money.Has anyone else heard anything about this? **Just cos i'm interested in hearing the whole story, I only caught a part of it.[ March 08, 2002: Message edited by: Enedhil ]

Glenethor · 03-08-2002, 08:45 PM

The way I heard it, from an interview with PJ, is that JRR's deal wasn't that bad. I think that the Tolkien estate will get 5% of profits after the movie(s) have doubled their money. I think they've already surpassed that with the first one. Then there is the book sales, which have gone through the roof this year, apparently. And I agree, it is a wonderful thing that the movie is bringing many new people to the books because there is no substitute.[ March 08, 2002: Message edited by: Glenethor ]

Maeglin · 03-09-2002, 10:57 AM

Light on dark, and shadows will flee.

03-05-2002, 06:45 AM	#1
celebrian Guest Posts: n/a	What did CHRISTOPHER Tolkien think of the movie? Has he said? Please post if so, thanks.

03-05-2002, 07:54 AM	#2
*Mithadan* Spirit of Mist Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Tol Eressea Posts: 3,383	As I understand it, he refused to see the Movie. In fact, a family squabble may have arisen. His son favors the movies as well as expanding the granting of rights to others to "use" JRRT's writings. The son, whose name eludes me, says that Christopher has not spoken to him in more than a year. __________________ Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land.

03-05-2002, 03:50 PM	#3
the_master_of_puppets Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: scotland Posts: 77	i heard he cut the son out the will because it was against his wishes 4 the movie 2 go ahead.<P>weird bugger if u ask me!

03-05-2002, 04:47 PM	#5
Aralaithiel Ghost Eldaran Queen Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A remote mountain in Valinor Posts: 353	<P>How sad, if that is the case! __________________ A lelyat, wen! (Quenya Elvish for "You go, girl!"

03-05-2002, 05:12 PM	#6
Elven-Maiden Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 297	Yeah, I heard that he disinherited his son too.... Poor guy! And to think, J.R.R. wanted to get into Hollywood too! __________________ Tout ce qui est or ne brille pas, Tous ceux qui errent ne sont pas perdus. Mobilis in Mobile

03-05-2002, 03:57 PM	#4
JesseCuster Guest Posts: n/a	This all sounds very severe. I don't think Christopher is much of a fun guy.

03-05-2002, 07:51 PM	#7
Marileangorifurnimaluim Eerie Forest Spectre Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Buried in scrolls of fanfiction Posts: 798	Christopher Tolkien supported Ralph Bakshi's Lord of the Rings (1978) which could explain his feelings. Also, Ralph was sitting on the film rights to the story hoping for another shot, and a few clever industry lawyers managed to get the rights for PJ without telling Ralph. Shooting was long underway before he heard about it, and whatever they did was perfectly legal, if not terribly ethical. So Ralph got his sour grapes in as well.<P>Since Christopher has his father's book enshrined, and doesn't think even his own writings can do them justice, I doubt he will ever like any movie/play/radio production/etc. __________________ Deserves death! I daresay he does... And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them?

03-05-2002, 07:55 PM	#8
Marileangorifurnimaluim Eerie Forest Spectre Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Buried in scrolls of fanfiction Posts: 798	I guess it's the difference between the artist and the historian. <P>An artist wants their work to be seen, appreciates other artists' take and vision. <P>An historian wants everything preserved, just as it is thank you, under glass, on non-acidic hypo-allergenic paper, with special non-UV lighting if possible.<P>Christopher's very much an historian of his father's work. __________________ Deserves death! I daresay he does... And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them?

03-05-2002, 09:56 PM	#9
Kalimac Candle of the Marshes Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Flyover Country Posts: 780	Saw an article on this in "The Daily Telegraph" a few months ago, can't find it now though...apparently Christopher Tolkien was quoted as saying that he was against the idea of the movies in general, since he didn't think his father's vision could ever be properly translated into film (maybe the Bakshi experience shook him up a little). So he probably hasn't seen the movie, just disapproves of the idea. <P>The article also mentioned that his son Simon was not on speaking terms with his father but that this situation apparently predated the movies by several years and had a lot of other factors contributing to it. This seems pretty believable - Christopher Tolkien did a great job of collating his father's writings etc. but he's also plainly not the most easygoing guy in the world. Easy to see where there could be some conflict. __________________ Father, dear Father, if you see fit, We'll send my love to college for one year yet Tie blue ribbons all about his head, To let the ladies know that he's married.

03-06-2002, 12:18 PM	#10
Glenethor Wight Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Far from the twisted reach of crazy sorrow Posts: 176	Why do I have a pic of 'Golf at the Beautiful Tree-Garth of Orthanc' on my reply screen?<P>Yeah, I've read the reports too. I think there is another reason for Christopher's reticence, but that would only be speculation. I don't think his behaviour is very adult, or, may I add, very <I>Christian</I>.<P>I just read an interview with Bakshi, but he wouldn't discuss the machinations that went on regarding the rights to LoTR. __________________ "Imagine there's no countries, it isn't hard to do. Nothing to kill or die for, and no religion too. Imagine all the people, living life in peace..." Dr. Winston O'Boogie

03-06-2002, 01:48 PM	#11
Rosa Underhill Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Waymeet, the Shire Posts: 297	Christopher strikes me as being a bit like his father and I don't think J.R.R. really would have approved of the films either. I'm reading "On Fairy Stories" right now and I'm at the part where he says literature is a much truer form of fantasy than anything one could do visually, like movies, plays and illistrations, no matter how believable. The only reason Bakshi had the LotR film rights was because, at some point, J.R.R. had to sell them to pay off a debt. Poor guy. (Tolkien, not Bakshi. I have no pity for that man, not only for what he did to LotR but for further spreading the illusion that all "furries" are perverts. Stupid Fritz the cat or whatever his name was!) __________________ WWAHD? (What would a Hobbit do?)

03-06-2002, 03:50 PM	#12
firncristwen Pile O'Bones Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: The light-swept paths of imagination Posts: 15	That is horrid. If I had had the sheer luck of Christopher...having goddam Tolkien for my father, hearing his bedtime stories and being in his wonderful presence for so long I would sure as hell want and give full support to the books' story being developed into quality production like the Peter Jackson movies and such. Because really, they don't dishonor the literature or make us less antsy to read the trilogy or "The Hobbit". If anything, we return radiant from the movie theater to reread our favorite chapters. Shame on Christopher! __________________ 'For many life is only the border of a terrible dream; shall we pass, I wonder?' ...from "Quest in the Blue"

03-06-2002, 08:19 PM	#13
Lush Fair and Cold Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the big onion Posts: 1,770	I've never met Chris Tolkien, and I don't want to be too judgemental, but I have to say, he doesn't sound like the warmest ray of sunshine. While the movies may never live up to his expectations, they're still only "a bit of fun." Lighten up, Chris! We feel your pain, but <I>come on</I>, smoke some pipeweed, relax, and don't have a nosebleed over it. __________________ ~The beginning is the word and the end is silence. And in between are all the stories. This is one of mine~

03-06-2002, 11:56 PM	#14
Birdland Ghastly Neekerbreeker Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto Posts: 1,751	If all of this is true, I think it's the saddest thing I've ever heard. To break contact with your own children because of a piece of art, no matter how beautiful, is just plain wrong.<P>And it's not like the book hasn't been merchandised to death, and portrayed on film in less-than-flattering light. Who cares? The book stands alone, and always will. No movie or Happy Meal toy is going to change that. <P>When Christopher Tolkien is ready to depart this world, I don't think his last thoughts will be "I wish Peter Jackson hadn't cast Liv Tyler in the role of Arwen".

03-07-2002, 01:07 PM	#15
Maeglin Wight Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Nan Elmoth Posts: 136	Aye, sad it is. <P>I do understand how Christopher feels I would probably feel the same if I was the son of JRR. I wouldn't hang up my life on it, thoe. Cutting the connection to ur seems really childich just beacause of some stupid movie.<BR>If he doesn't want to see the movie then he could just refuse to do it, drink his tea, smoke his pipe an accept that he has a son that happends to like the film. __________________ The fool speaks of what he knows. The wise knows what he speaks of.

03-07-2002, 03:02 PM	#16
Rosa Underhill Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Waymeet, the Shire Posts: 297	Just so everyone knows: it wasn't the LotR films that seperated Christopher and his son. I don't know what did but they weren't speaking to each other for a while before the latest movie came out. A film, no matter how good/bad, cannot divide a family like that. I think there some other, deeper issues at work here. __________________ WWAHD? (What would a Hobbit do?)

03-08-2002, 11:27 AM	#17
rhudladion Guest Posts: n/a	I agree with Rosa and raise my glass to Christopher. What else would you expect from me?<P>I write songs. If someone wanted to take my songs and express them in a form that I felt was poor, artistically speaking, I would not approve. Therefore, if I had a son that knew I felt this way, and he was then subjected to watching others turn my music into something that I believed was a lesser art form (poor art), I would expect him to be a little miffed.<P>I think this serves as a fair analogy to the situation discussed in this thread.<P>Sincerely, <BR>Rhudladion

03-08-2002, 05:09 PM	#18
goldwine Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: South Australia Posts: 64	I feel a bit sorry for Christopher - he was very much in a damned if I do, damned if I don't situation. In protecting his father's work he would naturally question the artistic integrity of a film maker (rightly so!) and it is true that the film is not a vaild reflection of Tolkien's ME in any real way.<BR>On the other hand.. to keep his father's work alive in the current generations, movies are a good way to stimulate interest in the real thing! Multitudes of people are now reading Tolkien's works with relish because the movie has whetted their appetite.<BR>I think the previous comments about Chris being a historian are extremely relevant - he has to be a "purist" for all the right reasons. ME is more than his inheritance from father to son, it belongs to all of us! __________________ 2A Balrog. A demon from the underpants (Gandalf)

03-08-2002, 05:17 PM	#19
Enedhil Wight Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Scotland Posts: 102	I heard somewhere that Tolkien had sold film rights to someone for a reeeeeally teeny weeny sum of money.<P>Has anyone else heard anything about this?<P><BR>**Just cos i'm interested in hearing the whole story, I only caught a part of it.<p>[ March 08, 2002: Message edited by: Enedhil ] __________________ Meanwhile these three remain: Faith, Hope and Love. And the greatest of these is Love.

03-08-2002, 08:45 PM	#20
Glenethor Wight Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Far from the twisted reach of crazy sorrow Posts: 176	The way I heard it, from an interview with PJ, is that JRR's deal wasn't that bad. I think that the Tolkien estate will get 5% of profits after the movie(s) have doubled their money. I think they've already surpassed that with the first one. Then there is the book sales, which have gone through the roof this year, apparently. And I agree, it is a wonderful thing that the movie is bringing many new people to the books because there is no substitute.<p>[ March 08, 2002: Message edited by: Glenethor ] __________________ "Imagine there's no countries, it isn't hard to do. Nothing to kill or die for, and no religion too. Imagine all the people, living life in peace..." Dr. Winston O'Boogie

03-09-2002, 10:57 AM	#21
Maeglin Wight Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Nan Elmoth Posts: 136	Light on dark, and shadows will flee. __________________ The fool speaks of what he knows. The wise knows what he speaks of.