Geniva(spl) Convention in ME? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Gimli Son Of Gloin · 06-11-2002, 06:13 PM

Was there any document like the Geniva(spl) Convention in Middle Earth?

[ June 11, 2002: Message edited by: Gimli Son Of Gloin ]

Lomelinde · 06-12-2002, 09:57 AM

That's a really interesting question.

If I recall correctly (I slept through most of my history classes), the Geneva Convention dealt with setting down rules for the humane treatment of POW's. If they did have something like that in ME, I don't think Tolkien ever said. The peoples of ME (the good ones) probably didn't need something like that anyway, and treated their prisoners decently enough ( i.e. the Elves of Mirkwood were kind to the Dwarves and even Gollum). Also, the "good" races, at least in the second and third ages, never really fought each other; they were all united against one common enemy and had enough problems to deal with. Therefore, they didn't have the time or will to pick quarrels amongst each other, and so didn't start wars with each other either; they had no need for a POW agreement or treaty. The only POW's they got were Orcs, and there's no reason why they would want to treat those humanely.

Hope my rambling helped a little. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

The Silver-shod Muse · 06-13-2002, 10:12 PM

The closest I can think of is the White Council, but that's not very much like the Convention at all. I think I'm gonna hafta agree with Lomelinde.

Eowyn of Ithilien · 06-15-2002, 08:10 AM

prisoners...Sauron and Melkor took prisoners only when greater suffering could come from their life than from their death

Gimli Son Of Gloin · 06-15-2002, 11:17 AM

Yea, but they wouldn't care about any laws, they'd be like the Japaneese, randomly murdering the POWs.

Tarthang · 06-15-2002, 01:10 PM

The Geneva Convention not only outlines the treatment of POW's. It also outlines generalized rules of conduct for warfare. For example: It is a violation of the Geneva Convention to use large caliber (like the HB Browning 50 caliber machine gun) against personell directly (putting a bunch holes in a truck to stop it, and a passenger gets hit in the process, would be completely acceptable). In other words it's Rules for Warfare, where all countries who officially accept the strictures are expected to abide by them, else the violatersa will face a trial in a UN Court of Law. However those countries who don't officially accept the strictures can pretty much get away with what they want.
I don't imagine Sauron or Morgoth would have paid any attention to any such rules, let alone even bother considering any such thing once they had openly declared themselves.

The Silver-shod Muse · 06-15-2002, 06:34 PM

I really don't understand how the guidelines laid down by the Geneva Convention are expected to be adhered to by warring countries. People war against each other because they don't agree and are, at that point, willing to do anything to get their way, even if it means murdering POWs. Do you suppose that a country on its last leg with a supply of Browning 50 caliber machine guns is going to forfeit the war because the Geneva Convention said so? It's international dynamics, and conditions change all the time.

Sorry about that. I got very much off-topic there. You must excuse my ranting, I suspect that I am rather ignorant.

[ June 15, 2002: Message edited by: The Silver-shod Muse ]

Shadow of Udûn · 06-29-2002, 06:05 AM

Well, in the Two Towers, after the battle of Helm's Deep, it says specifically what happens to the human prisoners taken - that they get put to work, and are then allowed to go back home (which they are then surprised about, having been hyped up by Sauruman about the supposed cruelty of the men of Rohan.
But Orcs being taken prisoner? No way. In the appendix to the RTK, there is the account of one king of Rohan who hunts orcs for sport. Orcs certainly aren't regarded as being human, or deserving of human rights. I'd expect that any prisoners taken (which wouldn't be many) would just be killed out of hand. Remember, men have their humanity in common - orcs and humans have nothing in common.
Off track, the Geneva convention is meant to ensure that wars are not as brutal as they usually are. It's of course, a bit hopeful to expect nations to fight 'nice' wars, but we can at least hope to cut down on the damage that civilians suffer - and it's civilians who are always the real victims of war.

06-11-2002, 06:13 PM	#1
Gimli Son Of Gloin Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: The Halls of Montezuma, and the Shores of Tripoli Posts: 495	Geniva(spl) Convention in ME? Was there any document like the Geniva(spl) Convention in Middle Earth? [ June 11, 2002: Message edited by: Gimli Son Of Gloin ] __________________ The Few, the Proud, the Marines.

06-12-2002, 09:57 AM	#2
Lomelinde Haunting Spirit Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Ha! Wouldn't you like to know? Posts: 80	That's a really interesting question. If I recall correctly (I slept through most of my history classes), the Geneva Convention dealt with setting down rules for the humane treatment of POW's. If they did have something like that in ME, I don't think Tolkien ever said. The peoples of ME (the good ones) probably didn't need something like that anyway, and treated their prisoners decently enough ( i.e. the Elves of Mirkwood were kind to the Dwarves and even Gollum). Also, the "good" races, at least in the second and third ages, never really fought each other; they were all united against one common enemy and had enough problems to deal with. Therefore, they didn't have the time or will to pick quarrels amongst each other, and so didn't start wars with each other either; they had no need for a POW agreement or treaty. The only POW's they got were Orcs, and there's no reason why they would want to treat those humanely. Hope my rambling helped a little. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ The Dwarf breathes so loud I could've shot him in the dark, drunk, blindfolded and hanging upside down from a tree.

06-13-2002, 10:12 PM	#3
The Silver-shod Muse Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: The shoulder of a poet, TX Posts: 388	The closest I can think of is the White Council, but that's not very much like the Convention at all. I think I'm gonna hafta agree with Lomelinde. __________________ "'You," he said, "tell her all. What good came to you? Do you rejoice that Maleldil became a man? Tell her of your joys, and of what profit you had when you made Maleldil and death acquainted.'" -Perelandra, by C.S. Lewis

06-15-2002, 08:10 AM	#4
Eowyn of Ithilien Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Australia Posts: 277	prisoners...Sauron and Melkor took prisoners only when greater suffering could come from their life than from their death __________________ But of bliss and glad life there is little to be said, before it ends; as works fair and wonderful, while still they endure for eyes to see, are their own record, and only when they are in peril or broken for ever do they pass into song.

06-15-2002, 11:17 AM	#5
Gimli Son Of Gloin Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: The Halls of Montezuma, and the Shores of Tripoli Posts: 495	Yea, but they wouldn't care about any laws, they'd be like the Japaneese, randomly murdering the POWs. __________________ The Few, the Proud, the Marines.

06-15-2002, 01:10 PM	#6
Tarthang Wight Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Paths of the Dead Posts: 108	The Geneva Convention not only outlines the treatment of POW's. It also outlines generalized rules of conduct for warfare. For example: It is a violation of the Geneva Convention to use large caliber (like the HB Browning 50 caliber machine gun) against personell directly (putting a bunch holes in a truck to stop it, and a passenger gets hit in the process, would be completely acceptable). In other words it's Rules for Warfare, where all countries who officially accept the strictures are expected to abide by them, else the violatersa will face a trial in a UN Court of Law. However those countries who don't officially accept the strictures can pretty much get away with what they want. I don't imagine Sauron or Morgoth would have paid any attention to any such rules, let alone even bother considering any such thing once they had openly declared themselves.

06-15-2002, 06:34 PM	#7
The Silver-shod Muse Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: The shoulder of a poet, TX Posts: 388	I really don't understand how the guidelines laid down by the Geneva Convention are expected to be adhered to by warring countries. People war against each other because they don't agree and are, at that point, willing to do anything to get their way, even if it means murdering POWs. Do you suppose that a country on its last leg with a supply of Browning 50 caliber machine guns is going to forfeit the war because the Geneva Convention said so? It's international dynamics, and conditions change all the time. Sorry about that. I got very much off-topic there. You must excuse my ranting, I suspect that I am rather ignorant. [ June 15, 2002: Message edited by: The Silver-shod Muse ] __________________ "'You," he said, "tell her all. What good came to you? Do you rejoice that Maleldil became a man? Tell her of your joys, and of what profit you had when you made Maleldil and death acquainted.'" -Perelandra, by C.S. Lewis

06-29-2002, 06:05 AM	#8
Shadow of Udûn Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Sydney Posts: 32	Well, in the Two Towers, after the battle of Helm's Deep, it says specifically what happens to the human prisoners taken - that they get put to work, and are then allowed to go back home (which they are then surprised about, having been hyped up by Sauruman about the supposed cruelty of the men of Rohan. But Orcs being taken prisoner? No way. In the appendix to the RTK, there is the account of one king of Rohan who hunts orcs for sport. Orcs certainly aren't regarded as being human, or deserving of human rights. I'd expect that any prisoners taken (which wouldn't be many) would just be killed out of hand. Remember, men have their humanity in common - orcs and humans have nothing in common. Off track, the Geneva convention is meant to ensure that wars are not as brutal as they usually are. It's of course, a bit hopeful to expect nations to fight 'nice' wars, but we can at least hope to cut down on the damage that civilians suffer - and it's civilians who are always the real victims of war. __________________ What it was could not be seen: it was like a great shadow...