*TTT - Saruman (Christopher Lee)* - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Estelyn Telcontar · 12-17-2002, 10:34 AM

What did you think of Saruman and Christopher Lee's portrayal in this movie?

Birdland · 12-18-2002, 03:46 AM

Well, he didn't get much screen time, and what was there was pretty much Christopher Lee doin' his thing. What strongly bothered me was his reaction as the Ents attacked and destroyed Isengard. He just kind of bobbed back and forth on the balcony, like some guy trying to figure out why his car alarm was going off. I mean, everything he had worked and planned for was going up in smoke - or down in water - and there's not a peep out of him. I would have expected SOMETHING. A little ranting, railing, and lamentation would have been nice. Perhaps a few counterspells or fireballs thrown at an Ent or two. But no, he just stands on the balcony, bobbing back and forth. Ya missed a golden opportunity there for some good scenery-chewing, Mr. Lee.

mollecon · 12-18-2002, 05:01 AM

Car-alarm? Agreed - but in some way it does fit in, the reaction I mean

12-18-2002, 06:50 AM

I agree with Birdland. In the book he activates his precious machinery from within Orthanc, and kills several ents; I mean, at least, he tried to defend himself. He didn't do nothing here. Also, the whole thing with the ents are really shortened down in the movie; in the book, a whole army of ents go marching to Isengard and use several days on damming up the Isen and ruining the stone ring. I wish PJ had shown that, but still, I guess he had to shorten down something.Let's hope Saruman shows some reactions when he meets Gandalf and the others in the next movie. Christopher Lee is doing a good job anyway!

TolkienGurl · 12-18-2002, 12:01 PM

This was a really good acting job.It was really cool when Saruman was yelling and getting the orcs all riled up. just seeing the HUGE army was creepy. Yet all he had to do was raise his hand and they were immediately silent.So, I've heard that Tolkien hated industrialization, right? Well, maybe he embodied this in Saruman. Some of his lines (I forgot which ones) are all "Yay we love industry and machines. Living things are useless," (except to burn for fuel) In answer to your inquiries, everything was going so well for our favorite little evil Istari. But all of a sudden he's caught by surprise, with very few minions to protect him and some giant tree things destroying his "wonderful creations." I'd be in shock if I were him![ December 18, 2002: Message edited by: TolkienGurl ]

Joy · 12-18-2002, 01:59 PM

No throwing the palantir out the window? No taking of Saurman's staff by Gandalf? No "rag tag" band speech?? Did they move this to RotK?

vanwalossien · 12-18-2002, 02:08 PM

They must've moved it, 'cause you really, really can't leave that out..! The palantír being thrown out, Pippin looking into it and then being brought to Edoras is *slightly understates the next word* important.

TolkienGurl · 12-18-2002, 02:54 PM

They haven't confronted Saruman yet. I bet it was moved to RotK because of time, and they probably did not want to rush such an important part. Theory: I think Saruman will be killed at this confrontation since there will be no Scouring. And since there will be no Scouring, there will be no reason for Saruman to be alive after the confrontation. Hey! I think I'm on to something! *runs off to read some more of TTT *[ December 18, 2002: Message edited by: TolkienGurl ]

Gandalf_theGrey · 12-18-2002, 04:18 PM

Hallo Birdland,* bows an amiable conversational greeting *In the Overall Impressions thread, you and I agree to the utmost degree. Regarding Saruman, however, we each take quite an opposite view.For Saruman to be driven to impotence and irrelevance is the cruellest punishment he can suffer in Middle Earth. Or perhaps, the second cruellest. First cruellest being, Saruman's powerlessness being made known publicly.Had there been ranting, railing, or lamentation, launching devilry-laden missiles of fire, forged metal, or fell voice ... that would have shown Saruman still hanging on, able to convince himself that all he had worked and planned for was not yet completely lost. When the power of persuasion meets up against a larger and more powerful contrary reality, only fitting that the tongue of enchantment fall silent, that the confuser bob about confounded.Gandalf the Grey

Birdland · 12-19-2002, 12:17 AM

Perhaps I have been overharsh Gandalf. Saruman was literally "brought down to size" in the scenes of the storming of Isengard. However, I wonder if P.J. was trying to show the impotence of the character, or just wanted to make sure we saw all his cool special effects. I do have to admit that the waters rushing around the Ents was beautiful.

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 12-19-2002, 05:16 AM

He got very little time. Plus, it was never shown how he treated Grima so cruelly.But what he did get he got spot on. It's Christopher Lee, man, it's not going to be bad.

Gandalf_theGrey · 12-19-2002, 09:29 AM

Good morning, Bird. I loved the flood scene too. (Waterloo?)Thanks for answering, for your further reply makes it also easier for me to more fully explain. (I've felt my previous answer to you to be lacking, actually.)To my mind, whether PJ was consciously trying to show Saruman's impotence or not ... in this he richly succeeded ... it was as if he had read "Unfinished Tales."For having read the section 'Concerning Gandalf, Saruman, and the Shire' in "Unfinished Tales," I could feel the emotional depth of Saruman's defeat wash over me as that gushing flood of undammed damning water with an almost tangible, palpable strength, just by glimpsing the cowed dimness of his pacing posture for half a moment.When Saruman is silent, it shows his vulnerability: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Yet he dreaded lest this should be discovered, and his own mockery turned against him, so that he would be laughed at ... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>and <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>After that Saruman went no more to the Shire, fearing that such tales might spread ... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The above quotes, interestingly enough, have to do with Saruman's publicly denouncing Gandalf's use of pipeweed while privately coming to use and enjoy pipeweed himself ... And pipeweed being one of the spoils which turns up after the Ents storm Isengard (at least in the book version of LotR) thus inclines me to see a connection. Couple this with Saruman's famed strength as a wizard being his ability to seduce his listeners with speech, and his inability to utter a word at his downfall speaks volumes.* bows a friendly bow *Gandalf the Grey[ December 19, 2002: Message edited by: Gandalf_theGrey ]

Arwen Imladris · 03-06-2003, 01:30 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Good news for fans of fantasy and of Christopher Lee: Meg writes that Lee is to play King Haggard in a new live action movie of The Last Unicorn. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><A HREF="http://www.the-last-unicorn.net/index.htm" TARGET=_blank>Click Here!</A>

Arwen Imladris · 05-27-2003, 01:38 PM

Today, May 27th is Christopher Lee's (Saruman) birthday! Christopher Frank Carandini Lee was born on May 27th 1922 in London, England. That makes him 81 today! Happy Birthday Christopher!

Meela · 05-27-2003, 03:12 PM

Happy birthday Mr. Lee.Saruman was terrifying yet highly attractive. A very good actor.

12-17-2002, 10:34 AM	#1
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	*TTT - Saruman (Christopher Lee)* What did you think of Saruman and Christopher Lee's portrayal in this movie? __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

12-18-2002, 03:46 AM	#2
Birdland Ghastly Neekerbreeker Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto Posts: 1,751	Well, he didn't get much screen time, and what was there was pretty much Christopher Lee doin' his thing. <P>What strongly bothered me was his reaction as the Ents attacked and destroyed Isengard. He just kind of bobbed back and forth on the balcony, like some guy trying to figure out why his car alarm was going off. <P>I mean, everything he had worked and planned for was going up in smoke - or down in water - and there's not a peep out of him. I would have expected SOMETHING. A little ranting, railing, and lamentation would have been nice. Perhaps a few counterspells or fireballs thrown at an Ent or two. But no, he just stands on the balcony, bobbing back and forth. <P>Ya missed a golden opportunity there for some good scenery-chewing, Mr. Lee.

12-18-2002, 06:50 AM	#4
morima Guest Posts: n/a	I agree with Birdland. In the book he activates his precious machinery from within Orthanc, and kills several ents; I mean, at least, he tried to defend himself. He didn't do nothing here. Also, the whole thing with the ents are really shortened down in the movie; in the book, a whole army of ents go marching to Isengard and use several days on damming up the Isen and ruining the stone ring. I wish PJ had shown that, but still, I guess he had to shorten down something.<P>Let's hope Saruman shows some reactions when he meets Gandalf and the others in the next movie. Christopher Lee is doing a good job anyway!

12-18-2002, 12:01 PM	#5
TolkienGurl Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Michigan, USA Posts: 637	This was a really good acting job.<P>It was really cool when Saruman was yelling and getting the orcs all riled up. just seeing the HUGE army was creepy. Yet all he had to do was raise his hand and they were immediately silent.<P>So, I've heard that Tolkien hated industrialization, right? Well, maybe he embodied this in Saruman. Some of his lines (I forgot which ones) are all "Yay we love industry and machines. Living things are useless," (except to burn for fuel) <P>In answer to your inquiries, everything was going so well for our favorite little evil Istari. But all of a sudden he's caught by surprise, with very few minions to protect him and some giant tree things destroying his "wonderful creations." I'd be in shock if I were him!<p>[ December 18, 2002: Message edited by: TolkienGurl ] __________________ Hopes fail. An end comes. We have only a little time to wait now. We are lost in ruin and downfall and there is no escape. -Frodo My Livejournal

12-18-2002, 01:59 PM	#6
Joy Spirit of a Warrior Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Wandering Posts: 1,012	No throwing the palantir out the window? No taking of Saurman's staff by Gandalf? No "rag tag" band speech?? Did they move this to RotK? __________________ God bless, Joy KingdomWarrior@hotmail.com http://kingdomWarrior.jlym.com As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God. My soul thirsteth for God, for the living God: when shall I come and appear before God?

12-18-2002, 05:01 AM	#3
mollecon Wight Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Denmark Posts: 188	Car-alarm? Agreed - but in some way it does fit in, the reaction I mean

12-18-2002, 02:08 PM	#7
vanwalossien Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: middle of Nowhere/Norway Posts: 372	They must've moved it, 'cause you really, really can't leave that out..! The palantír being thrown out, Pippin looking into it and then being brought to Edoras is slightly understates the next word <I>important</I>. __________________ "The ships hung in the air in much the same way as bricks don't"

12-18-2002, 02:54 PM	#8
TolkienGurl Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Michigan, USA Posts: 637	They haven't confronted Saruman yet. I bet it was moved to RotK because of time, and they probably did not want to rush such an important part. <P>Theory: I think Saruman will be killed at this confrontation since there will be no Scouring. And since there will be no Scouring, there will be no reason for Saruman to be alive after the confrontation. Hey! I think I'm on to something! <P>runs off to read some more of TTT <p>[ December 18, 2002: Message edited by: TolkienGurl ] __________________ Hopes fail. An end comes. We have only a little time to wait now. We are lost in ruin and downfall and there is no escape. -Frodo My Livejournal

12-18-2002, 04:18 PM	#9
Gandalf_theGrey Visionary Spirit Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 633	Hallo <B>Birdland,</B><P>* bows an amiable conversational greeting *<P>In the Overall Impressions thread, you and I agree to the utmost degree. Regarding Saruman, however, we each take quite an opposite view.<P>For Saruman to be driven to impotence and irrelevance is the cruellest punishment he can suffer in Middle Earth. Or perhaps, the second cruellest. First cruellest being, Saruman's powerlessness being made known publicly.<P>Had there been ranting, railing, or lamentation, launching devilry-laden missiles of fire, forged metal, or fell voice ... that would have shown Saruman still hanging on, able to convince himself that all he had worked and planned for was not yet completely lost. <P>When the power of persuasion meets up against a larger and more powerful contrary reality, only fitting that the tongue of enchantment fall silent, that the confuser bob about confounded.<P>Gandalf the Grey

12-19-2002, 12:17 AM	#10
Birdland Ghastly Neekerbreeker Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto Posts: 1,751	Perhaps I have been overharsh Gandalf. Saruman was literally "brought down to size" in the scenes of the storming of Isengard. <P>However, I wonder if P.J. was trying to show the impotence of the character, or just wanted to make sure we saw all his cool special effects. I do have to admit that the waters rushing around the Ents was beautiful.

12-19-2002, 05:16 AM	#11
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	He got very little time. Plus, it was never shown how he treated Grima so cruelly.<P>But what he did get he got spot on. It's Christopher Lee, man, it's not going to be bad. __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

12-19-2002, 09:29 AM	#12
Gandalf_theGrey Visionary Spirit Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 633	Good morning, Bird. <P>I loved the flood scene too. (Waterloo?)<P>Thanks for answering, for your further reply makes it also easier for me to more fully explain. (I've felt my previous answer to you to be lacking, actually.)<P>To my mind, whether PJ was consciously trying to show Saruman's impotence or not ... in this he richly succeeded ... it was as if he had read "Unfinished Tales."<P>For having read the section 'Concerning Gandalf, Saruman, and the Shire' in "Unfinished Tales," I could feel the emotional depth of Saruman's defeat wash over me as that gushing flood of undammed damning water with an almost tangible, palpable strength, just by glimpsing the cowed dimness of his pacing posture for half a moment.<P>When Saruman is silent, it shows his vulnerability:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Yet he dreaded lest this should be discovered, and his own mockery turned against him, so that he would be laughed at ... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>and<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>After that Saruman went no more to the Shire, fearing that such tales might spread ... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>The above quotes, interestingly enough, have to do with Saruman's publicly denouncing Gandalf's use of pipeweed while privately coming to use and enjoy pipeweed himself ... And pipeweed being one of the spoils which turns up after the Ents storm Isengard (at least in the book version of LotR) thus inclines me to see a connection. Couple this with Saruman's famed strength as a wizard being his ability to seduce his listeners with speech, and his inability to utter a word at his downfall speaks volumes.<P>* bows a friendly bow *<P>Gandalf the Grey<p>[ December 19, 2002: Message edited by: Gandalf_theGrey ]

03-06-2003, 01:30 PM	#13
Arwen Imladris Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: In a box with a fox Posts: 1,347	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Good news for fans of fantasy and of Christopher Lee: Meg writes that Lee is to play King Haggard in a new live action movie of The Last Unicorn. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><A HREF="http://www.the-last-unicorn.net/index.htm" TARGET=_blank>Click Here!</A> __________________ "Wake up! Wake up! Wake up, sleepies, we must go, yes, we must go at once."

05-27-2003, 01:38 PM	#14
Arwen Imladris Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: In a box with a fox Posts: 1,347	Today, May 27th is Christopher Lee's (Saruman) birthday! Christopher Frank Carandini Lee was born on May 27th 1922 in London, England. That makes him 81 today! Happy Birthday Christopher! __________________ "Wake up! Wake up! Wake up, sleepies, we must go, yes, we must go at once."

05-27-2003, 03:12 PM	#15
Meela Denethor's True Love Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Mirkwood. With Thranduil... swoon Posts: 2,049	Happy birthday Mr. Lee.<P>Saruman was terrifying yet highly attractive.<BR>A very good actor. __________________ 'The Hobbit' 1st impressions: 1. Thorin is hot... Oh god, I fancy a dwarf. 2. Thranduil is hotter. 3. Is that... Figwit! 4. Does Elijah Wood never age? 2nd: It's all about Fili & Kili, really. 3rd: BARD! OMG, Bard.