Ancient British cultures reflected in ME

[Auriel Haevasawen]

Many apologies if this is not erudite enough for the Books. I usually hang around on Novices and Newcomers but thought this might be a bit heavy.
Here goes. I read a lot about the Dark Ages and began to draw the following parallels and would appreciate other opinions.
1. Are Dwarves based on Vikings? Warlike, agressive, thieves, redhead etc. Users of runes and skilled in silver and gold. Women the equal of men.
2. Are elves celts? Ancient peoples forced into the west by invaders. Tall, reknowned for their own art and jewellry unlike any other. Druids and mysticism.
3. Are Hobbits Saxons. The main occupants of Britain by the end of the Dark Ages generally peaceable.
4. Are William the conqueror and the Normans Saruman and the orcs?
This is by necessity very brief and perhaps implausible, it just happened to be my idea thread. Many apologies if I've offended any users of 'The Books' by my theories.

[Daniel Telcontar]

You are not totally right about the Vikings; The women were not equal to the men. But the Norman/orc things is interesting. Tolkien wrote LOTR because England had no mythology, it had been lost when the Normans conquered England. So maybe you are right when you compare the Normans to the Orcs.

[Starbreeze]

Hey, they are interesting comparisons, and I think you could be right. It may not have been intended but there are some definite similararities between them.

[Child of the 7th Age]

I think the hobbits are actually closer to Victorian or Edwardian England; the hobbits are just too peaceful and domestic to be Anglo-Saxon.

The people of Rohan would be closer to anglo-Saxon England--the emphasis on honor and warfare. I know that the language of the Rohan was apparently similar to Anglo-Saxon.

sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[Gimli Son Of Gloin]

What do you mean saying Dwarves are thieves?? Huh? Whadu mean?

[Auriel Haevasawen]

Thank you for your replies and not having a go at me for being thick. Here goes my explanations to match the points everyone has made so far.
Daniel Telcontar I know they weren't exactly equal but were allowed to hold land and fight in defence of their farmsteads. They didn't have any political power and that kind of stuff though. I said my links were tenuous! Thanks though for agreeing about the Normans, they basically laid waste to most of britain.
Child of the 7th Age I suppose their costume with mention of waistcoats and the like is very rural Victorian. Very peaceful but seems pre-Industrial revolution so maybe more 18th Century, agracultural britain? I don't know it's not a part of British History I liked because I don't agree with empire building. You're right that the Saxons were probably not entirely peaceful enough (largely because they kept being invaded by Vikings) but I'm originally from Northumbria and we (we?) had libraries and an education system, plus peace (ish)pre 1066. Still probably not peaceful enough, I've just checked in one of my textbooks. Rohirrim (spl) seem about right, even their long houses. Thankyou.
Gimli Son Of Gloin I'm sorry if I've offended your people, but I was thinking of the Company in 'The Hobbit' setting out to raid Smaug's treasure, yes it was rightfully theirs but a very Viking thing to do.
Thankyou again everyone. Back to reading 'The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle' for evidence of my mad ideas.

[Airetelluma]

Several of your comparisons make some great sense and are probably quite right; Tolkien was very influenced by ancient European cultures, particularly in the language department and in the Old English tongue.

[Yerniel Vénea]

Dark Ages...hmmmm...my favorite time period also. I never thought to compare LotR with it but I totally makes sense...yet, I don't think it was what he intended. It is my belief that he was strictly fascinated with Ango-Saxon Britain and that to me would mean he didnt really look to before or after involving the Celts of Britain, the Normans, etc. But, I still don't know enough to say this is right or wrong. Just the thoughts of another Dark Age lover, though I strictly deal with 6th century Britain.

Yerniel Vénea

[akhtene]

Just recently came across an anglo-saxon and proably Viking custom of Ring-giving.A ring given by a thane (a lord)to one of his warriors or servants ment a synbolic bond, connection. Such rings usually had runic inscriptions on them.

[Gandalf_theGrey]

Hail, Auriel Haevasawen.

4. Are William the conqueror and the Normans Saruman and the orcs?

On seeing this, my jaw dropped. Having learnt pity and patience of Nienna the Weeper, I somehow managed to not spit a mouthful of tea all over my computer screen. As it happens, IRL, I am related to William the Conqueror.

Many apologies if I've offended any users of 'The Books' by my theories.

No problem, what's a little world-changing invasion among friends, after all, eh? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Well met, Auriel. * bows *

Gandalf the Grey

[Daniel Telcontar]

Akthene is right; The Viking Kings often gave large rings to put on your arm to members of their hird/elite soldiers. Maybe Tolkien was inspired there, since Sauron gives rings to the Nazgûl who becomes his best weapon?

[Aldagrim Proudfoot]

I love all these theories because thatr's the time period I love. I'm going to be a History major in the fall (I going to be a freshman). Can any of you please find links to ancient history sites? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Kuruharan]

I'm going to be a History major in the fall (I going to be a freshman).

Oh, you poor soul! You have my sympathy.

I've been playing that game for three years now. *shudders*

Let me know if you ever find anything useful to do with the degree. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

The Viking Kings often gave large rings to put on your arm to members of their hird/elite soldiers. Maybe Tolkien was inspired there, since Sauron gives rings to the Nazgûl who becomes his best weapon?

I don't think that it's really the same type of thing, but the Professor was undoubtedly aware of this.

And yes, Middle earth was patterned after the Dark Ages in many respects.

[Aldagrim Proudfoot]

LOL I'm gonna be a proffessor. not like Tolkien., cuz I got a C in French. hehe

[ June 11, 2002: Message edited by: Aldagrim Proudfoot ]

[Kuruharan]

Good Luck! (You'll need it!)

[ June 11, 2002: Message edited by: Kuruharan ]

[the real findorfin]

I love the dark age too!

The way i see it....

Rohhirim are like warriorish like saxons etc.

Gondor seems to be very organised and more substantial than Rohan, eg stone cities instead of hill forts. I would say that Gondorians were a bit like Normans after things settled down. That is just a guess so feel free to disagree.

Orc raiders - Goths???

[Auriel Haevasawen]

Thanks so much to everyone who had replied you're giving me loads to think about. I'm really pleased about the people who are into the Dark Ages. I could go on and on about the glory of the Kingdom of Northumbria and Saxon/Viking stuff but am painfully aware it is rather off topic so I promise to stick to Tolkien references. I'm impressed by anyone who wants to study this for a qualification. I study it for pleasure and have no one making me do assignments and stuff.
I hadn't thought about Gondor being Norman but that would make sense of the White City with it's walls and stuff. Isengard always makes me think of Asgaard in Norse mythology.
P.S. You sound a clever chap Gandalf even if your relative subjucated my ancestors. (:

[Aldagrim Proudfoot]

I think Valinor would be more like Asgard, since they are both the equivalent of Heaven. Isengard is simply a tower

[TarElendil]

Tolkien wrote about Middle-earth as a history for ancient Europe. If you find similarities in some instances its not a coincidence.

[Garulf]

Tolkien was influenced in a large way by Beowulf, a Nordic story. The whole concept of Rohan is based on Saxon "warrior-code." Tolkien also studied ancient Nordic languages which is where he got the Rohirrim's language from. I see Gondor as being more Roman (though possibly Norman). The hobbits are definitely pre-industrial britain. I don't think that the elves can be placed because they are so seperate from men.

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

Dwarves are like vikings, but were a viking nordic legend in the first place, which was easily transfused into the world of Tolkien's English Mythology. After all, the Celtic, Nordic and early British were all of the same origins, they just went their separate ways at very different times.

I think the elves were based more on scandinavian culture, of course in a high and classy way, and with some Welsh influence, unlike the Rohirrim who were certainly totally Scandinavian in influence.

[THE Ka]

Ahh... the dark ages. Somehow i wish that Rome didn't fall... oh well.


Only thing i will truly agree with is that the elves did sound like the celts. Just like the celts they we're forced from there land, and also like the celts they adapted to other cultures..( the romans). but, they still held to their old traditions.

i don't know about the Scandanavians and dwarves though.... Just like peter jackson said that Rohan in building layout is a more Scandanavian like... so, i think it's closer to Rohan....

Another thing to remember is that the Scandanavians where "a sea fareing peoples"... so, with that they might be even more close to the numenoreans... (if i am right)... they where called the ship kings right?

I will agree with a earlier statment the hobbits were a Victorian-like people... either that or the people belonging to the age of enlightenment... [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

Variety's the very spice of life, that gives it all it's flavour.
- Cowper,The Task, II

[Evisse the Blue]

I read in an interview with Tolkien once that he considered Dwarves to be similar to Jews. I remember going 'whoa...how so?' He said they had many traits one would consider Jewish, but he didn't give any examples.

[Halbarad]

See Tolkien's take on his interpretation of his works at the beginning of the Silmarillion 2nd edition. He wanted a legend for Britain that was tied to the land, not just the language, which is based on a combination of all the old cultures mentioned the the above posts, so Britain's history was no doubt of great inspiration to him.

Tolkien was influenced in a large way by Beowulf, a Nordic story.

The textbook for my Medieval Icelandic Language and Literature paper was proof read and pre-edited by The Man himself. He envisioned the end of the world and the final battle as a kind of Icelandic Ragnarok event, a very important idea in the Sil.

[Rumil]

Hi all,

I think Tolkien used different aspects of some familiar dark age and ancient cultures (and legends of those cultures) and rather mixed them up, in a fascinating way of course!
[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

For example the Rohirrim resemble the Goths in their largely unsettled horse-raising lifestyle (and have more Goth-y names during their early history), the Normans in their military tactics and hardware, but the Anglo-Saxons in their later names (eg. Eomer who was a Saxon assassin).

The elves have languages based on Finnish (Quenya) and Welsh (Sindarin) and are distantly related to the Sidhe of Irish legend. However, they are also great city builders (at least the Noldor) like the Romans etc.

The Numenoreans resemble Egyptians with their whole tomb-obsession thing, the Romans again in their empire-building episodes, the legend of Atlantis in Numenor itself and perhaps the Byzantines by the end of the 3rd age, being the remenants of a once-great empire, though bizarrely Faramir and Boromir's names appear to be Polish in form.

The Dwarves have Viking names (and so, of course, does Gandalf), though these were apparently based on mannish names from the Dale area, as Dwarves keep their real names secret.

The hobbits remind one of rural England, but have some quite advanced technology (clocks, umbrellas, etc.) so seem to belong to the 16th to 18th century perhaps.

So I think Tolkien looked far and wide for his cultural inspirations (Taniquetil sounds Mayan or Aztec or something similar surely?), and they don't necessarily relate to his philological inspirations in every case.

[ September 17, 2003: Message edited by: Rumil ]

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

I haven't a great deal to add to that very able assessment, other than a few oddments of Tolkien trivia. Many of the Dwarvish names in The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings came from the Icelandic Elder Edda. The section Dvergatál (List of the Dwarfs) contains such big names as Durin, Dáin, Bifur, Bofur and Bombur (the last three actually in that order) and Gandalf (the translation of which is 'staff-elf'). Since they come from Norse saga it seems hardly surprising that the Dwarves should remind us of the ancient Northmen. The Jewish connection can be overplayed, though: Tolkien had great respect for the Jews, and he did liken the Dwarves to them, but only to say:

I do think of the 'Dwarves' like Jews: at once native and alien in their habitations, speaking the language of the country, but with an accent due to their own private tongue.
Letter #175

To put this into perspective, he twice draws comparisons between the Jews and the Númenóreans (whom he does also compare with the Egyptians on the grounds that Rumil has cited). In letters #156 and #211 he compares their 'theology' and religious practice with those of Judaism.

As for the names of the Rohirrim, the Gothic flavour of their earlier nomenclature, and distinctly Old-English feel of the later is entirely deliberate. In Appendix F to The Lord of the Rings, Tolkien writes:

Having gone so far in my attempt to modernize and make familiar the language and names of Hobbits, I found myself involved in a further process. The Mannish languages that were related to the Westron should, it seemed to me, be turned into forms related to English. The language of Rohan I have accordingly made to resemble ancient English, since it was related both (more distantly) to the Common Speech, and (very closely) to the former tongue of the northern Hobbits, and was in comparison with the Westron archaic.

His use of Gothic in the formation of earlier Rohirric names is again presented as a translator's device, used to portray the relationship between the earlier language and the later one that we encounter in the Red Book. Old Gothic and Old English are both members of the Germanic group of languages, and share a common root.

On the subject of Tolkien's original motivation for formulating myths, he did indeed intend them to replace to some extent the lost legends of his own people. Tolkien's people were, of course, the English. He never tried to compose a mythology for Britain, Wales, Scotland and Ireland being well stocked with myth and legend already. Also, this ambition to write an English mythology was only the starting point. Tolkien once wrote:

Do not laugh! But once upon a time (my crest has long since fallen) I had a mind to make a body of more or less connected legend ... which I could dedicate simply to: to England; to my country.
Letter #131, to Milton Waldman

Gradually the legends became more and more detached from England as they grew, but England was indeed the original intended beneficiary of Tolkien's legendarium.

It seems to me hardly surprising that much of the inspiration behind Tolkien's writing should come from the Dark Ages, or as he put it himself 'the ancient North'. His professional and personal interests lay in that area and he drew from the history, languages and legends of that period and region, just as the poets of the time had done. He also followed more recent medieval works, such as Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, in which we encounter the saw "Þrid tyme Þrowe best" ("third time pays for all"); and from Shakespeare, from a dissatisfaction with whom arose the march of the Ents.

To my mind, this wealth of sources sets Tolkien's work apart from most other writers in the fantastic style. His choice of the ancient heroic romance (he described The Lord of the Rings as such) and his use of many ancient sources gives his work gravity, and makes us attend to huge vistas of history, language and literature that are often forgotten nowadays. Ironically, it is the use of ancient and unfamiliar material that often makes his work seem different and fresh, although it is rooted in the morkinskinna of northern Europe.

[ September 17, 2003: Message edited by: The Squatter of Amon Rûdh ]

[Halbarad]

The names of Thorin's dwarves were taken directly from an Icelandic poem, from the Elder Edda I think. I was blown away by this when I found out- I immediately posten on The Downs (but that was a couple of years ago.

[Anne S]

To me the Hobbits appear to be Victorian or Edwardian. When Tolkien describes Bilbo's departure from Bag End and his leaving gifts, some of the contents of his hobbit hole are items that would be commonly found in a middle-class Victorian household, such as the umbrella stand, the bookcase, sets of silver spoons, the waste paper basket. Pre-Victorian era these items would have only been found in the households of the elite upper-classes, while Bilbo was much more middle-class/country squire. Also, taking time out for afternoon tea, a favoured past time of the hobbits, really came about in Victorian times when due to industrialization, wealth was filtered down through the masses and more people could afford such a luxury. Again before Queen Victoria's reign, only the wealthy upper-classes had the leisure time and the money to relax with an afternoon meal and cup of tea. Makes sense considering Tolkien was born in the Victorian era and could probably easily relate to how the hobbits lived.

The Numenor Viking connection I think sounds reasonable in some aspects, for instance vikings were as someone pointed out a sea faring people and the Numonoreans and the vikings set up colonies on other lands to trade and gain wealth.

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

Tolkien said that Dwarves share many Jewish characteristics? Now that needs elaboration. It can't be the fact that they love material things, gold, silver, other moneys, that whole greedy thing is stereotype (isn't it?). Forced to move from their ancestral home to a lesser installation, where they are mistrusted and suspected, then upon attempting retaking original halls and being attacked by miserable creatures who had moved in? Maybe that's what he was talking about, though I doubt it. Then again, after the dwarf-orc war there was much respect and silence and proudness in 'burned' dwarves, and dwarves with the markings and wounds were revered. That's a better explanation. After all, he couldn't have drawn some mean connection to dwarf women having beards, could he?

[Osse]

Veering slightly off the theme of the past few posters, yet still highly relevant, I found to my slight surprise and great interest whilst looking through a book about the Saxons (it may have contained information on the Angles also) that The Angerthas and Tengwar alphabets are slightly modified versions of Saxon runic and scriptic alphabets. The two were on first glance identical. Tolkien was inspired to write his mythology after reading Scandinavian mythology, Finnish in particular, when reading examples of Finnish mythology, it is plain to see the similarities. Such things as Dwarves, Ring giving, elves (in something closer to their semblance in ME), dragons etc.

A great program was aired here in Australia about 18 months to 2 years ago, of British or Australian production about Tolkien's inspirations from Finnish mythology, it went into comprehensive detail and even went to Finland to speak to an aged lore master. Tolkien had travelled to Finland and got much of his knowledge of its mythology by word of mouth, from the same lore master. After passing his knowledge to only his son, and partially to a few others including Tolkien, the old man died.


I do not claim to be an expert historian, but it is one of my passions and i am very happy to hear everyone's opinions on the resemblance between Finnish, Danish and Swedish mythology and Tolkien's.

Osse
[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ September 19, 2003: Message edited by: Osse ]

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Well, I'm afraid I can't agree with any of those.

Except, in a different dimensions if you like, this one:

. Are elves celts? Ancient peoples forced into the west by invaders. Tall...

There is one thing. I don't know where you've got the 'tall' idea from, honestly. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] My father happens to be one after all -- Irish -- and I can tell you that Ghan-buri-Ghan would be a better comparison physically. And ancient Celtic society was quite unlike that of the Elves for sure (the jewellery that you mention may be symbolic or something, I suppose, but Celtic jewellery is not like Elvish jewellery).

In the developed mythology, the comparison between Elves and Celts is very insubstantial. However in Lost Tales-era (HoME 1-3) mythology, which is fascinating, you have (inadvertently perhaps [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]) touched upon a principle found in the early writings that could compare Celts with the Eldar. In these writings, the Anglo-Saxon invasions of England displaced the previous Eldarin population -- Britain was Tol Eressea.

So there you go. The earliest mythology, and you probably should read it if you want to look into this, might hold a bit of a paralell there (whether or not unintentional, and I don't think we could really say the same about the others. I can see a viable comparison neither of culture similarities, nor of what they did, in them, sorry. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Very vague indeed... oh well.

3. Are Hobbits Saxons. The main occupants of Britain by the end of the Dark Ages generally peaceable.

As they are the main occupants of Britain now. Not as pure-blood, of course. As has been said though, Hobbits are rather more similar to a 18th or perhap 19th century society, albeit that the same level technological advance had not nearly been reached.

The Rohirrim are the Anglo-Saxons, Auriel. There is certainly a true (and deliberate) paralell there.

All this talk about LotR as a mythology for England, though. What few people seem to realise that it, that is the Lord of the Rings/Silmarillian and later era stage of the mythology development, is really not. The standalone-ness and complexity of the developed writings are their own story, of course with strong links back to the Lost Tales-era roots (HoME 1-3, guys [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]) but are not a mythology for England.

That mythology is the Lost Tales. It is, as Tolkien says, an attempt at

... stories of its (England's) own, bound up with its tongue and soil.

That is to say, England and the modern world (planet Earth as we know it) is actually involved in the story. There are even links to the epic Anglo-Saxon English story Beowulf; they are actually stories of England. Read the Tales and you'll see this.

Lord of the Rings has however nothing to do with Britain or England, or Europe, beyond similarities and visible basings-in-our-world in Middle-Earth. England does not exist. The mythology in fact reached a stage where it broke off from the original aim, that of creating a greater English mythology than what Beowulf could afford. That Tolkien written English mythology, the Books of Lost Tales, should be read to gain an understanding of this.

(That doesn't mean that Middle-Earth things can't represent or be similar to English or British things, of course, but that Lord of the Rings is not the 'English mythology' that people seem to be misled that it is. Tolkien's writings were this once, but in the fully developed stage were not.)
--------

[ September 19, 2003: Message edited by: Gwaihir the Windlord ]

[Lathriel]

I always thought of dwarves as being kinda Norwegian. They seem a very northern folk.

Now, what about the people from Gondor?

For me they always seem difficult to place. In the movie they seem to make them kinda roman/greekish but for me they always seemed a mix of everything. Maybe they are british with a mix of what the roman influence left behind.

[Osse]

At this point I'd have to agree with Gwaihir. The Silmarillion, LOTR, UT and The Hobbit were not written as invented mythologies for Britain, nor were his races directly based or themed upon those of Dark Age Europe. I believe that Tolkien created the Men of Numenor from scratch, and though he may have drawn upon other civilisations for ideas, the Men of Gondor are not based upon any Dark Age race (if anything they are a hybrid of all the races of men). The same goes for hobbits. They may have been somewhat modern Anglo-Saxon in appearance, but so are all the races of Middle Earth. The Haradrim and men from Khand are not however. And as for the elves being based upon the Celts… [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

Gwaihir, one point where I do not agree with you is that the Rohirrim are based upon the Anglo-Saxons. The people that were later to be known as Anglo-Saxons were horse breeders as far back as before the decline of the Roman Empire. However these races were not Anglo-Saxons. They were Angles, Saxons and Jutes etc.-racially, genetically and governmentally different from one another. None of these people raised horses to the great scale that the people of Rohan do, nor did any of them have the depth of civilisation that the Men of Rohan have, it was hard to develop any when there were lots of odd bald men running around trying to spray water all over you and reading to you in weird languages. If you are referring to the stature and appearance of the Rohirrim, then it is likely that they were intended to be somewhat similar in appearance to the Anglo-Saxons. If you were referring to the structure of the Rohirrim’s government, or their architecture, weapon etc, then it could be said that they resemble many if not all Germanic tribes. The Rohirrim and their culture have been drawn from many civilisations and cultures of the Dark, and Middle Ages-Scandinavian, Germanic, Frankish (to a very, very SMALL extent, bloody French [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]) Celtic, Scottish and Britannic. Because most of these cultures share the same genetic roots, it could be said that the Rohirrim were drawn from the deep well of European history-they are a piece of everything and everyone.

[Man of the Old Hope]

Interesting question about the possible British sources for Tolkien's Middle-Earth cultures.

While there are strong echoes of a number of northern European cultures in the various peoples of Middle-Earth, it is clear that none of them is slavishly based on historic cultures or peoples (with the possible exception of the hobbits, who are pretty clearly based on the rural English of the Victorian era, or at least on some well-fed and comfortable facsimile of them! I'm often put in mind of Thomas Hardy's West Country folk when I read Tolkien's accounts of life in the Shire). And while British and other northern European cultural echoes and reflections are noted in the peoples of Middle-Earth, Tolkien's greater interest was in their languages (which of course begs the whole question of the relationship between the development of a language and the development of the culture of the people who speak it), and in how he used modern and ancient European languages to "translate" the manuscripts that became The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. In a letter of April 1954, Tolkien wrote,

"If it will interest you, I will send you a copy (rather rough) of the matter dealing with Languages (and Writing), Peoples and Translation." (Tolkien is referring to what would become "Appendix F" of The Return of the King) He goes on to write, "The latter has given me much thought. It seems seldom regarded by other creators of imaginary worlds, however gifted as narrators (such as Eddison). But then I am a philologist, and much though I should like to be more precise on other cultural aspects and features, that is not within my competence."

From this we should take the clue that Tolkien's cultural resonances, at least for some of the human (and hobbit) cultures, are to be understood through the languages he chose to "translate" The Red Book of Westmarch (i.e., The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings). These are presented to us in "Appendix F", as he also presents in the letter to which I refer (which comments may be found on pp. 173-6 in The Letters of JRR Tolkien). From his "translation" equivalents, we learn that the place-names and personal names of the Rohirrim, "represented as recent comers out of the North, and users of an archaic Mannish language relatively untouched by the influence of Eldarin" are turned into forms very like Old English (Theoden, Eomer, Edoras, etc.). Even the English-translated epithets, like "Wormtongue" are given a form very reminiscent of those found in Old English (or Old Norse, for that matter). The names of the Men of Dale and of Esgaroth are represented as being more or less Scandinavian in character; indeed, the trading culture of the Men of the Long Lake recalls that of the Viking traders who ranged from Novgorod to Greenland. Furthermore, the Dwarves are given names of Old Norse provenance, because in not divulging their true names to outsiders, they choose names that reflect the Mannish language spoken by their human neighbors. (As to their culture, the Dwarves, whom Tolkien clearly distinguishes from the twisted, sometimes hateful dwarfish beings of Germanic and Norse myth, very much recall old Norse cultures, both in their warrior-ways and in their craftsmanship.)

The ancestors of both these Mannish peoples of the late Third Age, the Rohirrim and the Men of Dale and of the Lake, that is the ancient Northmen, are given names redolent of the Goths, e.g., Vidugavia. So it seems clear that we should understand these cultures as having a common culture best represented as proto-Germanic, with a divergence over the centuries that produces two distinct cultures that nevertheless reflect that common "Germanic" base. It bears pointing out that, while forms quite like Old English are used to "translate" Rohirric names, the culture of these horsemen is not that of the Anglo-Saxons of early medieval England, nor indeed any of the Germanic peoples, who were none of them renowned horsemen. In that respect the Rohirrim are more like Scythians or Central Asian peoples.

I think it also clear that the Beornings share a sort of Germanic culture with the other Northmen descendants. Indeed, consider the mere fact of the name, "Beorn", which is an actual Old English name.

As Merry discovers in Rohan, there is a connection between the Westron spoken in the Shire and this more ancient ancestral form of Westron spoken in the Mark, which reflects Tolkien's skillful artifice in constructing languages that serve his "translation" purposes (the modern English used to "translate" Westron being descended from the Old English on which his Rohirric "translations" are based). Recall that a possible root form for hobbit, holbytlan, is constructed (by Theoden himself, I think?) upon learning what the halfling calls himself. We see further echoes of Old English in Shire-words as well: Michel Delving (from OE micel, "much, or great"), the mathom-house (from OE maðom, "treasure"), or even words like Shire and sheriff.

All of which is a philological way of saying that I think we should understand the hobbits to share a common proto-Germanic ancestral culture with the Northmen.

But there are clearly other cultural influences at work among the folk of the Shire, because some "translated" names are Frankish in origin (like Frodo) and some are Celtic in origin (like Meriadoc). Those with names translated by forms like Celtic (specifically, British-Cymric) likely have ancestry that lies in Minhiriath, a region where the Dunlendings also dwell, who probably have a sort of Celtic culture. The ancestors of the Breelanders are also understood to have their origins in that region (west of Rohan, south of Arnor), and a quasi-Celtic origin is reflected in the place-names with which Tolkien "translated" the place-names of Bree: Bree (Cymric-Welsh bryn, "hill"), Combe (C. cwm, "coomb"), Chetwood (a sort of redundant play on C. coed, "wood, or forest"). I will admit that the culture and the personal names of the Breelanders don't seem very Celtic, perhaps because they've been influenced by the Hobbits and by the (all-but-extinct) Edainic culture of the Numenorean folk of Arnor.

Gondor (and by extension, such princedoms as Dol Amroth) is an interesting case. An Edainic/Numenorean kingdom heavily influenced by the Eldarin (after all, their kingly ancestors were "elf-friends"), with Sindarin names. One of the posters above is quite correct to point out the Egyptian resonances of the obsessive tomb-building attempts at defying death among the late Numenorean kings and nobility, but the overall feel of this last Numenorean outpost (Gondor) is still northern European. Interestingly, though, Tolkien reflected enough on the geography of Gondor to note that the city of Minas Tirith should be thought of as being on a latitude roughly that of Florence or of Constantinople. So are we correct in assigning a sort of Byzantine feel to Gondor, in that it preserves the learning and architecture of a diminishing and disappearing once-powerful ancient culture?

As to the Elves, no doubt there is some reflection in their character of the Celtic myths of elves (Sidhe, Tylwyth Teg), but Tolkien's Elves are still quite unlike the Welsh and Irish fairies, who tend on the whole to be far more mercurial and even malevolent than Tolkien's Eldar.

In that same letter, Tolkien wrote, (having already noted the "Elven-latin" character of Quenya, with Finnish and Greek ingredients; and the British-Welsh linguistic character of Sindarin),

"'Elves' is a translation, not perhaps now very suitable, but originally good enough, of Quendi. They are represented by a race similar in appearance (and more so the further back) to Men, and in former days of the same stature. I will not here go into their differences from Men! But I suppose that the Quendi are in fact in these histories very little aking to the Elves and Fairies of Europe; and if I were pressed to rationalize, I should say they represent really Men with greatly enhanced aesthetic and creative faculties, greater beauty and longer life, and nobility...."

Sorry for the length of my comments! But I hope they shed some light.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Gwaihir, one point where I do not agree with you is that the Rohirrim are based upon the Anglo-Saxons.

Surely you agree that they are similar? There are two exceptions for what I said, I think, that is that direct basings in Britain for the developed mythology are not to be found; and they are the Hobbits of the Shire, and the Men of the Riddermark.

I simply have to say that the Rohirrim and the Saxons share a kinship. The old, English Anglo-Saxons. As the land of Rohan is akin to England to an extent -- not the same England as the shire, but the wild green grassland and moor of the North;
'... this land itself, rich and rolling in part, and else hard and stern as the mountains.'

They were not wholly Anglo-Saxon, the Rohirrim, but as I say they are most definitely strongly based, rooted, inspired or are at least too similar for it to be of a random relationship to each other (was it done inadvertently? maybe). Tall, fair-haired, free, fighting to defend their land; the king is an Old English style king of mighty legend, not a tyrant but with the same spirit as the people themselves, there is a peerage or lords (common not just in England, although it was structured (still is) particularly well and with a British identity, in Britain, whether or not that's just for British people [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]); living in a somewhat somewhat scattered fashion in a land that, as I have mentioned, hearkens to the land of England. As the Man of Old Hope says, look at the language. There is no doubt that Rohirric is Old English, and Tolkien deliberately rendered it so.

A (in many aspects and to many an extent true) legend of the ancient Saxons of England.

Tolkien himself acknowledged the fact that the Rohirrim were distinctly Anglo-Saxon in image, and interestingly, on discussion of the subject, said this:

'This linguistic procedure [i.e. translating Rohirric into Old English] does not imply that the Rohirrim closely resembled the ancient English otherwise...'

Thomas Shippey (internet reference =]) holds that they are nonetheless quite noticably and in a few ways like the ancient English of legend.

Rohan was not the same as ancient England. There were many distinct differences between the two, one of them as you say, that the Rohirrim were always a united tribe while England, as a united kingdom under one king, was only forged after some centuries of there being around four kingships in England. This isn't really a big issue, though, but the horses are. Anglo-Saxon England wasn't the 'horse-power' that Rohan was. It is a commonly known fact that the Conqueror's mounted knights, in the Battle of Hastings, were an important factor in steadying a Norman superiority whenever the English footmen came down from the hill -- the Anglo-Saxons made much use of horses, but they didn't fight on horseback until the practice was brought in by the Normans.

There are areas such as the horses, that seperate old England from Rohan. The people, who as I mentioned contain elements of the Saxons of legend, are rather too solemn (situatiion?). Denying that the Rohirrim have a distinctly Anglo-Saxon flavour -- while not being the same, again I stress that! -- is, though, not true. Not as I feel it.

[ September 25, 2003: Message edited by: Gwaihir the Windlord ]

[Man of the Old Hope]

I quite agree with Gwaihir.

I realize that these comments of mine:

the culture of these horsemen is not that of the Anglo-Saxons of early medieval England, nor indeed any of the Germanic peoples, who were none of them renowned horsemen

are certainly open to misunderstanding. What I meant by "culture" was simply their horsemanship and their culture insofar as it was built around their magnificent horsemanship. Otherwise, the culture of the Rohirrim is very reminiscent of old Germanic cultures (though I am perhaps more reminded of Old Icelandic culture - sans the boats! - than Old English, but that's probably splitting hairs). But what is clear is that their language is very nearly based on Old English, and there is no doubt that language echoes culture (and vice versa).

Then there's also that matter of the leaders of the 5th century Saxon invasion of Britain, Horsa and Hengest: or rather, Horse and Stallion.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Well pointed out. Tolkien was familiar with the Old English, and with the legend of Hengest and Horsa; Lost Tales in fact tie in with it, with Eriol Aelfwine who is mentioned to actually be the father of these two leaders. That doesn't echo in the later mythology, but the ancient Anglo-Saxons do in the Rohirrim. Perhaps Tolkien wanted to include the Old English, letting somewhat of the his earliest setting of his old (and very beautiful) stories survive into the independant version?

Horses are a Rohirric specialty more that anything, of course. Horses can be related to the Anglo-Saxons of old, though. They simply appear to agree somewhat with the old stories, culture and setting of the whole thing, even if the pre-Conquested Anglo-Saxons didn't really have quite the same association with horses as the Rohirrim (especially in fighting. The similarity there appears to be the spirit more than the method employed; but fighting on horseback, and with spears, belongs to Rohan of Middle-Earth.).

[Scott]

The image of the ring-giver is also illustrated in the epic Beowulf, which the Professor worked ardently upon. A good and generous king (like Hrothgar, in Beowulf)gave his most loyal subject rings in order to keep allegiances/show gratitude for their loyalties and services.

So I think Tolkien looked far and wide for his cultural inspirations (Taniquetil sounds Mayan or Aztec or something similar surely?), and they don't necessarily relate to his philological inspirations in every case.

Tolkein began writing his books with no prior studying, planning, or even a prewrite. He made many of his languages from scratch. The others had strictly European origins. To try associating languages from across the globe would only defeat Tolkein's purpose, to provide a legend where none existed. It wasn't an intercontinental affair. Though, I do adminre your insight and it's incredible how you can draw intercultural connections from the books. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]