Elfish? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Elrian · 12-16-2001, 02:44 AM

I'd like to know who the whiz is that started that term going. It sounds silly. I mean was it too much trouble to say Elven? It kills the beauty of the language by calling it that.

Maeglin · 12-16-2001, 04:25 AM

I agree! Elven it is! Thoe, iv might have said elfish once. Sorry, Elrian. But why did people start to say elfish?

Lostgaeriel · 12-16-2001, 06:15 AM

Because, the words "elfish" and "elfin" are in most dictionaries, but "elven" is not.I think "Elven" is a much better-sounding word. And it distinguishes Tolkien's Elves from those miniature brownie/fairy/faerie/leprechaun/elves.[ December 16, 2001: Message edited by: Lostgaeriel ]

Zippo · 12-16-2001, 12:07 PM

Hmmm.... when i saw the post the reason i came in was to tell you it isnt elfish...that annoys me a WHOLE lot.. It makes me think of fish and i dont want to think of fish when i think of elves...

Elrian · 12-16-2001, 12:08 PM

It's Elven, that's what the post was about.

12-16-2001, 05:47 PM

I recently read a biography on Proffesor Tolkien, and the correct pernunciation is actually elfish believe it or not. (Dwarfish also) Although I and all other Tolkien fans around the world believe elven and dwarven sound much more beautiful. Tolkien himself says so, and kept his own word, elvish. Just keep saying elvish. Pay no attention to the dictionary.

Orald · 12-16-2001, 11:53 PM

It doesn't bother me that much. Many people use those terms.The problem is a Dwarve is different from a Dwarf. Dwarves are actually Dwarrows while Dwarfs are still Dwarfs. The distinctions are made clear by Tolkien because in his mind they are not the same, just as Dwarin Thunderhammer stated in the thread 'Goblins?' in the Books II Forum. Elves of ME are not Elves from popular myth and legend and are not faeries either. They are Eldar and the term 'Elf' Tolkien disliked altogether. So if you are saying that Elfish is wrong, then I would think that Elven would be too, from a certain perspective anyway.

Elrian · 12-17-2001, 01:21 AM

So Eldarin would be correct and Elven, Elfish, and Elvish would be more proper for a Keebler Elf. I like that, your right. But Elven still does ound better than the other 2 if it must be so.

Elanor · 12-17-2001, 02:29 PM

Well, just from a quick glance at the Fellowship (handy, near the PC) Tolkien seems to use 'elvish' for the language and script (ie as a noun) and 'elven' for other references, (ie as an adjective). For example, the writing on the ring: "the letters are Elvish", Bilbo saying "I thought you knew enough Elvish at least to know Dúnedan". Gandalf speaks "many single words of Elvish speech" while trying to open the Doors at Moria. There are many other references too. But at the doors to Moria, Gandalf mentions the "elven-way from Hollin" and the decorations being in the "elven-tongue". There are also uses of elven in other places like "Here's a pretty hobbit skin to wrap an elven-princeling in", "Gil-galad was an elven-king" and so on.It seems to me that Tolkien made a clear distinction between 'elvish' as a noun and 'elven' as an adjective. (Though I found 'elvin' as well, I think it may be a misprint - "an elvin maid there was of old, a shining star by day..." sang in the Lothlorien chapter.)[ December 17, 2001: Message edited by: Elanor ]

Maeglin · 12-17-2001, 02:41 PM

Hmmm, im swedish so it dosent really matter to me. But something that really bugs me is that many people in sweden thinks that elf means pixie since the swedish word for pixie sounds much more like the english elf than the swedsih elf does. English SwedishElf = Alv (Alv) Pixie = Elva (Älva)Now you might think that the swedish word for elf is an ugly word not worthy such a beatiful being. But it sounds better in swedsih trust me.

Elrian · 12-17-2001, 09:36 PM

Alv doesn't sound bad. Now if it were Urp or something like that it would.I did check my books and the Complete guide to Middle Earth and it is Elvish. Elven does sound better but it's there in black and white. But Elfish is nowhere in there thank goodness. Gee as many times as I've them, goes to show you can't remember everything.

obloquy · 12-18-2001, 01:47 AM

I've seen some silly things come out of the Complete Guide. Not to say it's wrong in this instance, though. I once saw a guy argue until he was blue in the face that the Witch-King's real name was Morgul -- based on the Complete Guide. At least I think it was the Complete Guide to Middle-earth. Could've been another with a similar name. I've got spicy crab dip!

12-16-2001, 02:44 AM	#1
Elrian Eldar Spirit of Truth Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Land of the FREE, Home of the BRAVE Posts: 794	Elfish? I'd like to know who the whiz is that started that term going. It sounds silly. I mean was it too much trouble to say Elven? It kills the beauty of the language by calling it that. __________________ ~Call me a relic, call me what you will. Say I'm old fashioned , say I'm over the hill. That old whine ain't got no soul. I'll stick to Old Toby and a Hobbit hole.~

12-16-2001, 04:25 AM	#2
Maeglin Wight Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Nan Elmoth Posts: 136	I agree! Elven it is!<BR>Thoe, iv might have said elfish once.<BR>Sorry, Elrian.<BR>But why did people start to say elfish? __________________ The fool speaks of what he knows. The wise knows what he speaks of.

12-16-2001, 06:15 AM	#3
Lostgaeriel Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Toronto the Good Posts: 477	Because, the words "elfish" and "elfin" are in most dictionaries, but "elven" is not.<P>I think "Elven" is a much better-sounding word. And it distinguishes Tolkien's Elves from those miniature brownie/fairy/faerie/leprechaun/elves.<p>[ December 16, 2001: Message edited by: Lostgaeriel ] __________________ Elen síla lúmenn’ omentielvo, a star shines on the hour of our meeting.

12-16-2001, 12:07 PM	#4
Zippo Animated Skeleton Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: I live in...well I live every where! HAHAHA! Posts: 49	Hmmm.... when i saw the post the reason i came in was to tell you it isnt elfish...that annoys me a WHOLE lot.. It makes me think of fish and i dont want to think of fish when i think of elves... __________________ I am Saki The Conqueror, Ruler of the east and the west and ALL That is In between!

12-16-2001, 12:08 PM	#5
Elrian Eldar Spirit of Truth Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Land of the FREE, Home of the BRAVE Posts: 794	It's Elven, that's what the post was about. __________________ ~Call me a relic, call me what you will. Say I'm old fashioned , say I'm over the hill. That old whine ain't got no soul. I'll stick to Old Toby and a Hobbit hole.~

12-16-2001, 05:47 PM	#6
Leanne Anderson Guest Posts: n/a	I recently read a biography on Proffesor Tolkien, and the correct pernunciation is actually elfish believe it or not. (Dwarfish also) Although I and all other Tolkien fans around the world believe elven and dwarven sound much more beautiful. Tolkien himself says so, and kept his own word, elvish. Just keep saying elvish. Pay no attention to the dictionary.

12-16-2001, 11:53 PM	#7
Orald Shadow of Malice Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: right behind you Posts: 843	It doesn't bother me that much. Many people use those terms.<P>The problem is a Dwarve is different from a Dwarf. Dwarves are actually Dwarrows while Dwarfs are still Dwarfs. The distinctions are made clear by Tolkien because in his mind they are not the same, just as Dwarin Thunderhammer stated in the thread 'Goblins?' in the Books II Forum. Elves of ME are not Elves from popular myth and legend and are not faeries either. They are Eldar and the term 'Elf' Tolkien disliked altogether. So if you are saying that Elfish is wrong, then I would think that Elven would be too, from a certain perspective anyway.

12-17-2001, 01:21 AM	#8
Elrian Eldar Spirit of Truth Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Land of the FREE, Home of the BRAVE Posts: 794	So Eldarin would be correct and Elven, Elfish, and Elvish would be more proper for a Keebler Elf. I like that, your right. But Elven still does ound better than the other 2 if it must be so. __________________ ~Call me a relic, call me what you will. Say I'm old fashioned , say I'm over the hill. That old whine ain't got no soul. I'll stick to Old Toby and a Hobbit hole.~

12-17-2001, 02:29 PM	#9
Elanor Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: my own corner of the Shire Posts: 316	Well, just from a quick glance at the Fellowship (handy, near the PC) Tolkien seems to use 'elvish' for the language and script (ie as a noun) and 'elven' for other references, (ie as an adjective). For example, the writing on the ring: "the letters are Elvish", Bilbo saying "I thought you knew enough Elvish at least to know Dúnedan". Gandalf speaks "many single words of Elvish speech" while trying to open the Doors at Moria. There are many other references too. <BR>But at the doors to Moria, Gandalf mentions the "elven-way from Hollin" and the decorations being in the "elven-tongue". There are also uses of elven in other places like "Here's a pretty hobbit skin to wrap an elven-princeling in", "Gil-galad was an elven-king" and so on.<P>It seems to me that Tolkien made a clear distinction between 'elvish' as a noun and 'elven' as an adjective. (Though I found 'elvin' as well, I think it may be a misprint - "an elvin maid there was of old, a shining star by day..." sang in the Lothlorien chapter.)<p>[ December 17, 2001: Message edited by: Elanor ] __________________ "When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading." Henny Youngman (1906 - )

12-17-2001, 02:41 PM	#10
Maeglin Wight Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Nan Elmoth Posts: 136	Hmmm, im swedish so it dosent really matter to me. But something that really bugs me is that many people in sweden thinks that elf means pixie since the swedish word for pixie sounds much more like the english elf than the swedsih elf does. <P>English Swedish<P>Elf = Alv (Alv)<BR>Pixie = Elva (Älva)<P>Now you might think that the swedish word for elf is an ugly word not worthy such a beatiful being. But it sounds better in swedsih trust me. __________________ The fool speaks of what he knows. The wise knows what he speaks of.

12-17-2001, 09:36 PM	#11
Elrian Eldar Spirit of Truth Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Land of the FREE, Home of the BRAVE Posts: 794	Alv doesn't sound bad. Now if it were Urp or something like that it would.<P>I did check my books and the Complete guide to Middle Earth and it is Elvish. Elven does sound better but it's there in black and white. But Elfish is nowhere in there thank goodness. Gee as many times as I've them, goes to show you can't remember everything. __________________ ~Call me a relic, call me what you will. Say I'm old fashioned , say I'm over the hill. That old whine ain't got no soul. I'll stick to Old Toby and a Hobbit hole.~

12-18-2001, 01:47 AM	#12
obloquy Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: WA Posts: 941	I've seen some silly things come out of the Complete Guide. Not to say it's wrong in this instance, though. <BR>I once saw a guy argue until he was blue in the face that the Witch-King's real name was Morgul -- based on the Complete Guide. At least I think it was the Complete Guide to Middle-earth. Could've been another with a similar name. <BR>I've got spicy crab dip!