Spells and Magic

[Thingol]

In the passage where Gandalf is trying to open the doors of Moria from A Journey in the Dark from the Fellowship of the Ring Gandalf says:

I once knew every spell in all the tongues of Elves, Men, and Orcs, that was ever used for such a purpose...

In the letters of Tolkien he specifically states that only Elves can use magic. These two things seem to contradict each other. Answer probably has something to do with differences between lore and magic, but I've always been kind of fuzzy on that. For example the barrow wight blades had spells of the bane of mordor cast on them, but how could men cast spells? I have always been kind of confused about Aragorn's seemingly mystic ability to heal people, but I've always just chalked it up to the teeny bit of elven blood in him.

[Fenrir]

Gandalf was a maiar, despite being in mortal form. There may be a difference between proper magic and enchantments that allows the blades of the barrow-downs to be embued with special properties. In tLotR there are quite a few instances of mortal/immortal men who can use, or claim to use sorcery. The Witch-King and the Mouth of Sauron spring immediatly to mind.

[Elrian]

Gandalf being Maia could use what power he possessed, which was higher than Elven. Aragorn was descended from Elven blood, as well as Edain, far removed but he still had a few enhanced abilities. Sorcery I believe was taught to the witchking, and perhaps the other Wraiths by Sauron, who was also a Maia.

[ January 10, 2002: Message edited by: Elrian ]

[Ghâshgûl]

Perhaps it is quite simple: Only Elves can use magic, because if any other beeing uses it, it is called sorcery or witchcraft. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[ January 10, 2002: Message edited by: Ghâshgûl ]

[Elenhin]

Men could, to a limited extent, use magic. The dagger-smith "cast spells" (don't think of D&D-type magic here) on the daggers, and Aragorn used magic in the arts of healing.

The letter to which Thingol is referring was never sent. Tolkien got up to the point where he said "Men couldn't use magic". Then he wrote to the margin "but Numenoreans used 'spells' in making swords". Then he discarded the letter.

[Scapegoat]

There are a number of examples of both Dwarves and Men practicing magic. Some are fairly minor. Like magical toys at Bilbo's party, imported from the Mountain and Dale. Also the harps from Smaug's lair. Its possible these could have been made by Elves but it doesn't seem likely.
A bit more interesting are 'moon letters', invented by Dwarves, and the hidden door to Smaug's lair and the west gate to Moria.
Human magic seems more rare, at least from non-Numenorean. However there is one example that puts most others to shame, indeed it can be argued that it is a greater feat of magic than anything Gandalf ever did.
Can you guess what it is? I was thinking of Beorn turning himself into a bear.
Also does anyone remember a story from the First Age about a Druadan that made a statue that could come to life? I'm sure I read it but I have never been able to find it again.

[Mithadan]

The Druedain story is in Unfinished Tales.

[Thingol]

I was doing some more research on this, looking through the letters and found these 2 quotes:

"...Anyway, a difference in the use of `magic' in this story is that it is not to be come by `lore' or spells; but is in an inherent power not possessed by Men as such. Aragorn's healing' might be regarded as `magical', or at least a blend of magic with pharmacy and hypnotic processes. But it is (in theory) reported by hobbits who have very little notions of philosophy and science; while Aragorn is not a pure Man, but at long remove one of the children of Luthien."

The Letters Of Tolkien, Letter #155

Also from the Letters Of Tolkien:

"The particular branch of the High-Elves concerned, the Noldor or Loremasters, were always on the side of `science and technology', as we should call it: they wanted to have the knowledge that Sauron genuinely had... The particluar `desire' of the Eregion Elves - an `allegory' if you like of a love of machinery, and technical devices - is also symbolized by their special friendship with the Dwarves of Moria."

The Letters of Tolkien, Letter #153

Tolkien seems to referr to magic as an Inherent ability of the Elves. Men, Dwarves, and even Orcs could produce machines, weapons, armour, doors, runes, and other objects that seemed to be "magical" through the use of lore. However, that still does not explain Gandalf's original statement:

"I once knew every spell in all the tongues of Elves, Men, and Orcs, that was ever used for such a purpose."

The spells that are being referred to are not objects that are made, they are words used to open a door.

[ January 10, 2002: Message edited by: Thingol ]

[Elrian]

Originally posted by Ghâshgûl:
<STRONG>Perhaps it is quite simple: Only Elves can use magic, because if any other beeing uses it, it is called sorcery or witchcraft. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[ January 10, 2002: Message edited by: Ghâshgûl ]</STRONG>

sorcery and witchcraft would also be different than Elven magic, not as strong either. But Gandalf also could use magic of a much stronger power than what the Elves possessed.

[ January 11, 2002: Message edited by: Elrian ]

[Yaish]

Men must be able to use magic, or at least sorcery. When Sauron gave the nine to men, it is stated they became kings and sorcerers. I dont think the magic they would have wielded came only from the ring they were given, though that is an option.

[Thingol]

Yaish, Tolkien himself said in letter 153 that men could not use magic, the power of the the 9 rings is the only way they could have wielded any magic.

[Aiwendil]

But, as was quite clearly said a few posts ago, that letter was only a draft that was never sent, and Tolkien commented in the margin on the Numenoreans' use of spells.

There is ample evidence that Men can use magic. There is the Numenorean sword, though I suppose one could argue that these Men had a strain of Elvish blood. The Nazgul are indeed said to have become great sorcerers, though no doubt this was in part due to the rings. But there is no ambiguity with Beorn, nor with the Druedain. Neither of these had Elvish blood, nor artifacts made by the Elves.

[Thingol]

The letter in question is in the books, where does it say it was never sent? It was my understanding that what the Numoreans used to make the swords was termed "Lore" by Tolkien. They only appeared magical, much like a telephone would appear magical to people in the middle ages. Things created by skill are termed lore in letter 153.

[ January 15, 2002: Message edited by: Thingol ]

[Elenhin]

Letters of JRRT:

155 To Naomi Mitchison (draft)

A passage from a draft of [Letter #144], which was not included in the version actually sent.

I am afraid I have been far too casual about 'magic' and especially the use of the word...
...
[Some paragraphs about magic in Middle-earth]
...
Anyway, a difference in the use of 'magic' in this story is that it is not come by by 'lore' or spells; but it is an inherent power not possessed or attainable be Men as such. Aragorn's 'healing' might be regarded as 'magical', or at least a blend of magic with pharmacy and 'hypnotic' processes. But it is (in theory) reported by hobbits who have very little notions about philosophy and science; While A. is not a pure 'Man', but at long remove one of the 'children of Lúthien'. [Note 2]

The letter ends here.

Note 2 says the following (these are notes by the editor):

Alongside the final paragraph, Tolkien has written: 'But the Númenóreans used "spells" in making swords?'

So, like I said: Tolkien first wrote that Men couldn't use magic, and then he realized that they actually did use magic in the story.

I would also say that Mannish magic is limited to some specific individuals, who for some reason had special powers. Some (if not most) were Númenóreans, probably of Elros' line. This would at least make sense to me.

[ January 16, 2002: Message edited by: Elenhin ]