Bombadil and Gandalf

[Cameron Waite]

Last night i nearly finished Rotk for about the 10th time. However i have never really understood one of Gandalf's statments. Speaking of Bombadil he says something to the affect that "he is a moss gatherer and i have been a stone doomed to rolling." What does this mean? He also says that he must leave the hobbits for a time to talk with Bombadil "a talk that i havent had in all my time." What is the significance of this important discussion? Maybe i am way off but perhaps he is handing over his stewardship and care of the Shire to Bombadil and so therefore Bombadil can stop gathering moss and be the rolling stone. That is a wild guess but the only thing i can come up with.

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

"he is a moss gatherer and i have been a stone doomed to rolling."

This means that Tom is not a traveller, he stays at home in the Old Forest; and that Gandalf is a traveller that never stays in the same place for long. Think of a stone covered with moss: it implies that the stone has stayed in the same place for time enough to let the moss grow on its surface [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

"a talk that i havent had in all my time." What is the significance of this important discussion?

Who knows? This sentence means to me that Tom is something else than what it seems at first sight; he is important enough for Gandalf to want to have a serious talk with him about 'important matters' [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Daisy Brambleburr]

he is a moss gatherer and i have been a stone doomed to rolling."

To me that means that Gandalf is a traveller while Tom stays in one place. Similar to the proverb, 'a rolling stone gathers no moss'.

And as for the talk? I think that Gandalf just wanted to have a chat. Yes, bring out the tea and iced buns!
Maybe your right in some ways about Tom looking after the Shire etc, but I don't really think that he would do that. He seems just to stay around the Old Forest and not to go into the Shire much. Plus, the Shire won't need much care now that the war is over.
I'd guess that Tom was a pretty interesting person (or whatever he is) so Gandalf simply wanted to talk with him. About what? It's a mystery. Or perhaps Gandalf knows more about this 'enigma' than we do. Maybe he knows his real purpose? Who knows?

Boy, that was a mysterious post!

[Gorwingel]

I personally think that what the discussion means is that Bombadil is much more important than he appears. I can't recall right now but I think I heard something about Bombadil talking with the elves that are traveling through that area and gathering information that Gandalf did not know about it. I think that Gandalf was probably inquiring Tom B. about if there was any effect on the woods around his home because of the growing power in the East.

[Finwe]

It seems to me that Gandalf was sort of handing over his guardianship of the Shire to Tom Bombadil. I mean, he had no reason to keep guarding it. He stayed to keep a watch over the Bagginses, especially Bilbo, and later Frodo, because they had a Ring of Power. When Frodo left with the Ring, Gandalf was with him, guarding what he had originally wanted to guard. Now that Sauron was defeated, and evil vanquished for a long time, the Shire didn't need to be guarded. Aragorn would keep a watch over his northern borders, and the Rangers were still roaming about. The Shire had plenty of protection, and Gandalf knew that Tom would be around for a looong time, so he asked him to keep an eye on the Shire for him.

[Legolas]

It seems to me that Gandalf was sort of handing over his guardianship of the Shire to Tom Bombadil. I mean, he had no reason to keep guarding it. He stayed to keep a watch over the Bagginses, especially Bilbo, and later Frodo, because they had a Ring of Power.

The first seems very odd, and the latter isn't true.

The first: Bombadil wasn't anymore interested in keeping watch over the Shire than he was keeping watch over the Ring - he is quite aloof; that is, detached. He thinks only of himself and his neck of the woods.

Gandalf studied hobbits and their lore before he met Bilbo. Perhaps you missing the Scouring of the Shire and the following chapters? One of the major reasons for the four hobbits going along on the journey to prepare themselves to fight their own battles - Gandalf knew his time would be up when Sauron fell, and that evil spreads everywhere (including the Shire, whose time would come). Gandalf couldn't/wouldn't going to watch over the Shire forever, nor would/should anyone else when he left. This is the entire point of those final chapters where the Shire is in danger.

Note Gandalf's words towards the end of Homeward Bound (7,VI). He spells it out:

‘Deep in, but not at the bottom,’ said Gandalf. ‘You have forgotten Saruman. He began to take an interest in the Shire before Mordor did.’
‘Well, we’ve got you with us,’ said Merry, ‘so things will soon be cleared up.’
‘I am with you at present,’ said Gandalf, ‘but soon I shall not be. I am not coming to the Shire. You must settle its affairs yourselves; that is what you have been trained for. Do you not yet understand? My time is over: it is no longer my task to set things to rights, nor to help folk to do so. And as for you, my dear friends, you will need no help. You are grown up now. Grown indeed very high; among the great you are, and I have no longer any fear at all for any of you.’

[ June 19, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]

[Liriodendron]

I see the stone/moss gatherer bit as...Gandalf is very concerned with what is/is going to happen. He is a "mover and shaker" of the current events of ME. (in that age) Tom Bombadil could care less! He has stopped movement...finding his place and time in the world and staying there. He can grow moss, he is not moving.

I see Gandalf's conversation with Tom being unusual, because Tom is older and in a certain sense perhaps *wiser* than Gandalf. An opportunity for Gandalf to talk to someone who can tell him a thing or two! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Findegil]

Posted by Liriodendron:

An opportunity for Gandalf to talk to someone who can tell him a thing or two!

That's a good point. And I don't see that Gandalf is going to tell Bombadil much. He goes thier to listen and learn. Gandalf himself tells in my oppinion some of his interesset (amphasis is mine):

"he is a moss gatherer and i HAVE been a stone doomed to rolling."

Doesn't that indicat that Gandalf rolling tiem are over? And would it not be logicla for Gandalf to get some instructions from one who had long setteld down?

Respectfully
Findegil

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

Doesn't that indicat that Gandalf rolling tiem are over?

Of course it is over; he is leaving Middle Earth and returning to the Undying Lands [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[The Saucepan Man]

And would it not be logical for Gandalf to get some instructions from one who had long setteld down?

That seems to me to be a very good point, Findegil. As Liriodendron wonderfully put it, Gandalf was a "mover and a shaker", but his "moving and shaking" days are over. He's soon off to the Undying Lands for a bit of R&R, but is probably a bit rusty on how to go about spending his time doing very little of any consequence. And who better to go to for advice on that very subject but the old "hey dol! merry dol!" man himself. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Bêthberry]

Perhaps it is simply a writer's quickhand way of trying to establish some credibility for Bombadil, of tying together some loose ends at the end of the book and attempting to integrate into the story a character who does not play an active role in the main plot.

And note that, despite the alleged importance of Goldberry for Frodo, there is no mention here at the end of her. She disappears; it is only Bombadil who matters.

Bêthberry

[ June 20, 2003: Message edited by: Bêthberry ]

[Annalaliath]

The women tend to all disappear, don't they. But that doesnot matter, I think that Gandalf just wanted to talk to him. About what I don't know, sometimed it is best not to wonder. Maybe he was going to give the guardiansip of the Shire to him, maybe he just wanted to tell him the reacent events. That is what I think.

[MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie]

There are some great points mentioned here.

"He is a moss gatherer and I have been a stone doomed to rolling."

I do like the idea of Gandalf going to Tom Bombadil to listen and learn. However, it may not be about how to settle down and relax. If Gandalf has been a stone doomed to rolling, then he has not been in same place all the time, whereas Bombadil has been, right by the Shire. Maybe Gandalf wanted to hear what Bombadil knew about the Shire, since he was close enough to observe it all these years, since the beginning. Not only that, Tom was here at the beginning so he was bound to have observed other things also.

'...I am old. Eldest, that's what I am. Mark my words, my friends: Tom was here before the river and the trees; Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn. He made paths before the Big People, and saw the little People arriving. He was here before the Kings and the graves and the Barrow-wights. When the Elves passed westward, Tom was here already, before the seas were bent. He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless-before the Dark Lord came from Outside.'

And so, he was here before the Shire, so he was bound to know of all its history, or most, at least. Maybe Gandalf wanted to ask him some things about the Shire that boggled his mind. Or Gandalf might have wanted to know something about the Barrow-wights. Gandalf had tried to catch up on the history of the Shire and piece it together. I don't think Gandalf knew of the full history and maybe he wanted to know it, finally, all together and complete.

And if Gandalf wanted to finally relax and become a moss gatherer, then he might have wanted to make sure all his errands were completed and to make sure that what was left to do (throwing out Saruman and fixing the Shire) was a task that could be completed without his aid.

It no longer surprised them; but he made no secret that he owed his recent knowledge largely to Farmer Maggot, whom he seemed to regard as a person of more importance than they had imagined. 'There's earth under his old feet, and clay on his fingers; wisdom in his bones, and both his eyes are open,' said Tom

And Tom is sure to know much of the current events of the Shire, even if he doesn't always observe it. It seems he has Farmer Maggot on the inside giving him info. And the quote above doesn't sound like it's the first time Maggot gave him some info.

Bombadil wasn't anymore interested in keeping watch over the Shire than he was keeping watch over the Ring - he is quite aloof; that is, detached. He thinks only of himself and his neck of the woods.

I wouldn't dismiss the possibility of Gandalf handing over the guardianship of the Shire to Bombadil, however, I'm not saying it's true, either. Bombadil seems to have kept his eye ever the Shire with the help of Maggot. However, we don't know that he has done anything to protect it directly. The only way we see, is through saving the four hobbits twice, and that was indirectly. However, he might have asked Rangers to keep extra watch at times, as Gandalf did, or he might have been a person who observed the Shire, and its events, and then told others of it and had them figure out what to do. Now, maybe Gandalf was asking Tom to keep it up, giving him instructions on who might be taking care of the Shire, or taking guardianship over the Shire. Gandalf may even have taken the liberty to include the Shire as part of Bombadil's land, therefore, ensuring his responsibility of it. So Tom would care about the Shire if it was his land. And even if that didn't happen, due to his dealings with Farmer Maggot, we know that Tom does actually care about something outside his land.

If I cared so much about my land, and held it precious to my heart, I would keep a close eye on the surrounding lands. If I were Tom, and I saw what was once a peaceful Shire, be overrun by evil, I would expecting it to spread. It's like a neighborhood. You care about your house, so you have to care about your neighborhood. You have to watch out for any threats in the surrounding houses in order to endure the safety of your house and all who dwell in it. Tom had to have had a care about the Shire, one way or another.

[ June 25, 2003: Message edited by: MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie ]

[tinewelt]

tom is the "moss" that never moves. He "is", as goldberry said. He is as old as time, and has stayed in his boundaries for all the ages. Gandalf of course, has never called one place home. A good analogy was the one made earlier about the boulder with no moss. I also believe Gandalf wanted to have the conversation with him because it was the last real conversation with a wise being, that he would have in middle earth. dont get met wrong, the captains of the west, elrond, ect. were all wise, but tom is ancient, like his counterpart treebeard. I believe Gandalf maybe linked the two together, and tom was the missing piece of his puzzle for the lore of middle earth and its years. who is tom bombadil? HE IS....

[lore_master]

here is a question, what was Gandalf doing betweent he years when he left the hobbits to have his little chat with Tom, and when he came to the grey havens, was he with Aragorn, as an advicer, in rivendell with bilbo and elrond, or just wandering? his chat with bombadil coudn't have lasted for 20 or so years, howeverlong it was.

[Lord of Angmar]

I believe the answer is probably a mix of all of those, Lore Master. I would imagine that he did often visit Aragorn, as well as maintaining his relationships with the folk of Rivendell, Mirkwood and with the Dwarves in the area. Don't forget, Maiar too are subject to emotion, and Gandalf probably wanted to say goodbye to the vast lands that he had helped save from the hand of Sauron. I would imagine that between his visit with Bombadil and the Grey Havens, his main occupation was wandering about Middle Earth, talking to old friends and relations and visiting many lands, and saying cheers to the Mortal Lands forever.

[william]

good old gandalf was also known as that olorin character right? he was a mair angellic thingy and tom was created with the world. maybe gandalf got back his good old mair memories and wanted to chat about the good old days before these pesky mortals got in the way. was not olorin one of the wisest angel thingys maybe he had some questions so he could keep his reputation up. the memory is the first to go ya know.

[Lord of Angmar]

Welcome to the Downs, William.

Gandalf, or Olorin, was a Maiar and Bombadil's true nature is unknown to all but (or perhaps including) Professor Tolkien.

Good point, perhaps they were reminiscing on the days 'before these pesky mortals got in the way'. Who knows if Olorin and Bombadil had met at some point before the Third Age?

[william]

yes it is late and i would gladly use the correct terminollagy if i could but i am terribly wearied i do indeed know it but it does not come to mind as it used.