The witchking - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Keeper of Dol Guldur · 01-11-2002, 05:38 PM

I feel that the Witchking actually died not because his invisible sinews could not hold from the Numenorean sword, but from fear. He was a being of fear and almost allpowerful (compared to Merry) but being supersticious as all were in the trilogy, he felt fear at Eowyn not being man, and that was the key to his downfall. Anyone agree?

Fenrir · 01-12-2002, 04:12 AM

I don't think so, Tolkien does state that Merry's sword did remove the enchantment that held his sinews together. And I find it hard to believe that Angmar never felt fear. After all, he didn't always know about the prophecy which was made by Glorfindel quite a long way into the third age. He would probably have been afraid during the Last Alliance, for instance.

Keeper of Dol Guldur · 01-14-2002, 04:31 PM

Ah, but that brings up the question of where were the nazgul during the last alliance, noone ever made any reference to that. But you are right about the fear, because he fled from the elf lord Glorfindel during his mocking of Earnur. But still, he was a numenorean much older than the sword, so how it could be enchanted against him unless the sword itself had a prophecy on it is beyond me.

Fenrir · 01-17-2002, 12:01 PM

During the Last Alliance? Probably running away as fast as possible. They didn't do much when Ar Pharazon took Sauron to Numenor, did they? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
The sword could have been made at any time between the reigns of Tar Atanamir and Ar Pharazon.

Voronwe · 01-17-2002, 12:37 PM

The sword was made in the 'North Kingdom' (Arnor), after the fall of Numenor. The reason it was so effective against the Witch King is that it was made for the North Kingdom's war with Angmar, the realm that the Witch King used to rule.

-Voronwe

Keeper of Dol Guldur · 01-18-2002, 04:25 PM

Thats right, but how did the remnants of the northern kingdoms get that kind of enchanting power to fight angmar, unless Rivendell or The Havens helped. I've never heard of men doing stuff to weapons like that.

Inziladun · 01-18-2002, 04:46 PM

All the special weapons I can recall in the books were made by either Elves or Dwarves. The Men of Arnor may have had help from Rivendell in sword making, but it's difficult to see the Telerin mariners of the Havens as knowing much about the craft.

Orald · 01-18-2002, 06:00 PM

I stayed out of this discussion because it didn't seem very interesting, but as of the 14 that changed, and now I have several things I would like to discuss.

What happened to the nazgul after the last alliance? I don't remember anything about them being stated. I know that the witch-king goes on to form a realm in the North, but were the nazgul temporarily out of service when Sauron's ring was cut from his body?

What exactly did the nazgul do during Sauron's stay in Numenor? Did they prepare for his return? Twiddle their thumbs?

Thirdly, in response to the Keeper of Dol Goldur, the Druedain were known for there 'magical' abilities, and they were men, some of them even went to Numenor. In Numenor, the lore of weapon making became great, perhaps the Dunedain of Arnor improved on what they already knew being close in friendship with the Elves, but not necessarily having elves forge the weapons themselves.

***Mister Underhill*** · 01-18-2002, 06:42 PM

A note found in UT, in reference to the Orc troops that attacked Isildur, leading to his death and the loss of the Ring, gives this clue to what happened to the Nazgûl after Sauron's defeat at the hands of the Last Alliance:

Quote:

It is unlikely that any news of Sauron's fall had reached them [the Orc detachment], for [Sauron] had been straitly besieged in Mordor and all his forces had been destroyed. If any few had escaped, they had fled far to the East with the Ringwraiths.

Presumably during the time he was in Númenor, the Ringwraiths were getting up to dickens back in Middle-earth, as they are wont to do. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Fenrir · 01-19-2002, 03:54 AM

I think it mentions that the Nazgul lost their physical shape and were swept far into the east with their master.

Elrian · 01-19-2002, 04:08 AM

The Witchking stayed hidden until around TA 1300 when he came to Angmar and began troubling the North. The other 8 remained hidden until around TA 1640 when they returned to Mordor to prepare it for Sauron's return.

01-11-2002, 05:38 PM	#1
Keeper of Dol Guldur Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: 315, CNY Boys and girls. Posts: 405	The witchking I feel that the Witchking actually died not because his invisible sinews could not hold from the Numenorean sword, but from fear. He was a being of fear and almost allpowerful (compared to Merry) but being supersticious as all were in the trilogy, he felt fear at Eowyn not being man, and that was the key to his downfall. Anyone agree? __________________ "I come from yonder...Have you seen Baggins? Baggins has left, he is coming. He is not far away. I wish to find him. If he passes will you tell me? I will come back with gold." - Khamul the Easterling

01-12-2002, 04:12 AM	#2
Fenrir Wight Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Nevrast Posts: 103	I don't think so, Tolkien does state that Merry's sword did remove the enchantment that held his sinews together. And I find it hard to believe that Angmar never felt fear. After all, he didn't always know about the prophecy which was made by Glorfindel quite a long way into the third age. He would probably have been afraid during the Last Alliance, for instance. __________________ Fearlessness is better than a faint-heart for any man who puts his nose out of doors. The length of my life and the day of my death were fated long ago.

01-14-2002, 04:31 PM	#3
Keeper of Dol Guldur Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: 315, CNY Boys and girls. Posts: 405	Ah, but that brings up the question of where were the nazgul during the last alliance, noone ever made any reference to that. But you are right about the fear, because he fled from the elf lord Glorfindel during his mocking of Earnur. But still, he was a numenorean much older than the sword, so how it could be enchanted against him unless the sword itself had a prophecy on it is beyond me. __________________ "I come from yonder...Have you seen Baggins? Baggins has left, he is coming. He is not far away. I wish to find him. If he passes will you tell me? I will come back with gold." - Khamul the Easterling

01-17-2002, 12:01 PM	#4
Fenrir Wight Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Nevrast Posts: 103	During the Last Alliance? Probably running away as fast as possible. They didn't do much when Ar Pharazon took Sauron to Numenor, did they? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] The sword could have been made at any time between the reigns of Tar Atanamir and Ar Pharazon. __________________ Fearlessness is better than a faint-heart for any man who puts his nose out of doors. The length of my life and the day of my death were fated long ago.

01-17-2002, 12:37 PM	#5
Voronwe Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Gondolin Posts: 413	The sword was made in the 'North Kingdom' (Arnor), after the fall of Numenor. The reason it was so effective against the Witch King is that it was made for the North Kingdom's war with Angmar, the realm that the Witch King used to rule. -Voronwe __________________ "If you would be a real seeker after truth, you must at least once in your life doubt, as far as possible, all things." -- René Descartes

01-18-2002, 04:25 PM	#6
Keeper of Dol Guldur Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: 315, CNY Boys and girls. Posts: 405	Thats right, but how did the remnants of the northern kingdoms get that kind of enchanting power to fight angmar, unless Rivendell or The Havens helped. I've never heard of men doing stuff to weapons like that. __________________ "I come from yonder...Have you seen Baggins? Baggins has left, he is coming. He is not far away. I wish to find him. If he passes will you tell me? I will come back with gold." - Khamul the Easterling

01-18-2002, 04:46 PM	#7
Inziladun Gruesome Spectre Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Heaven's doorstep Posts: 8,037	All the special weapons I can recall in the books were made by either Elves or Dwarves. The Men of Arnor may have had help from Rivendell in sword making, but it's difficult to see the Telerin mariners of the Havens as knowing much about the craft. __________________ Music alone proves the existence of God.

01-18-2002, 06:00 PM	#8
Orald Shadow of Malice Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: right behind you Posts: 843	I stayed out of this discussion because it didn't seem very interesting, but as of the 14 that changed, and now I have several things I would like to discuss. What happened to the nazgul after the last alliance? I don't remember anything about them being stated. I know that the witch-king goes on to form a realm in the North, but were the nazgul temporarily out of service when Sauron's ring was cut from his body? What exactly did the nazgul do during Sauron's stay in Numenor? Did they prepare for his return? Twiddle their thumbs? Thirdly, in response to the Keeper of Dol Goldur, the Druedain were known for there 'magical' abilities, and they were men, some of them even went to Numenor. In Numenor, the lore of weapon making became great, perhaps the Dunedain of Arnor improved on what they already knew being close in friendship with the Elves, but not necessarily having elves forge the weapons themselves.

01-19-2002, 03:54 AM	#10
Fenrir Wight Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Nevrast Posts: 103	I think it mentions that the Nazgul lost their physical shape and were swept far into the east with their master. __________________ Fearlessness is better than a faint-heart for any man who puts his nose out of doors. The length of my life and the day of my death were fated long ago.

01-19-2002, 04:08 AM	#11
Elrian Eldar Spirit of Truth Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Land of the FREE, Home of the BRAVE Posts: 794	The Witchking stayed hidden until around TA 1300 when he came to Angmar and began troubling the North. The other 8 remained hidden until around TA 1640 when they returned to Mordor to prepare it for Sauron's return. __________________ ~Call me a relic, call me what you will. Say I'm old fashioned , say I'm over the hill. That old whine ain't got no soul. I'll stick to Old Toby and a Hobbit hole.~