The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Today's Posts


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-15-2003, 11:16 AM   #1
Bęthberry
Cryptic Aura
 
Bęthberry's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,996
Bęthberry is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Bęthberry is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Bęthberry is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Bęthberry is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.
Boots He said; she said: where the critics led

I have just found online a very well argued critical review of Tolkien scholarship. The review is scholarly but not deadly. (Well, not in the negative sense; as legitimate readers of Tolkien, these authors probably do deserve our own playful title of "dead.")

"Tom Shippey's JRR Tolkien: Author of the Century and a Look Back at Tolkien Criticism since 1982" by Michael D.C. Drout and Hilary Wynne

Drout and Wynne believe that Shippey and Flieger are the best critics on Tolkien and they substantiate their argument. They also review other trends and critics with wit and flair.

This is a tremendously rich barrow for raiding in search of inspiration for topic ideas here on the Barrow Downs.

Some of the topics covered:

the problem with equating the identification of a source with discovery of meaning in Tolkien's art;
the right way and the wrong way to talk about Good and Evil;
bibliographies of articles;
authoritative texts;
why we need to defend Tolkien and why we don't;
mythology for England.

Drout and Wynne provide a good summation of what attracts so many to Tolkien, that Tolkien is himself an exile speaking to exiles and giving voice to this longing of not belonging. They suggest that Treebeard is Tolkien's voice: "I am not altogether on anybody's side because nobody is on my side."

Drout and Wynne are particularly fair to fans of Tolkien who face the derision of academic critics. I had a good chuckle out of this line, probably because I belong to both these camps:

Quote:
Every sub-culture has its rituals and at least the Tolkien fans seem to be having fun when they enact theirs (unlike, say, the participants of the Modern Language Association conference, who appear to be uniformly miserable.
Bęthberry
__________________
I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.
Bęthberry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2003, 08:38 PM   #2
Finwe
Deathless Sun
 
Finwe's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos
Posts: 2,609
Finwe has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Finwe
Sting

Well, I'm glad that we all finally get some recognition! I've been waiting for that for a while. No one appreciates our unique culture. In fact, on standardized tests now, whenever it asks for religion, I'm putting Valarin (Middle-earth doesn't have an official religion, so I made one up).
__________________
But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.
Finwe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2003, 04:54 AM   #3
Gwaihir the Windlord
Essence of Darkness
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Evermore
Posts: 1,420
Gwaihir the Windlord has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Well the Numenoreans worshipped Illuvitar, but I don't think they had priests as such. It is more individual worship, I think, rather than a structured religion like the Churches.

They sound a bit up themselves though, don't they? 'We're the best Tolkien critics around?'
Gwaihir the Windlord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2003, 07:14 AM   #4
Bęthberry
Cryptic Aura
 
Bęthberry's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,996
Bęthberry is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Bęthberry is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Bęthberry is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Bęthberry is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.
Boots

Finwe, I would be more inclined to think that our cult would centre upon Tolkien, who brought us the word--um, song--of Ilúvatar, rather than the Valar, wouldn't you think?

Gwaihir the Windlord, let us hope we Tolkien cultists don't re-enact the fate of the Númenóreans. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] And, yes, those miserable MLA types do tend towards that form of self-satisfaction.

[ June 18, 2003: Message edited by: Bęthberry ]
__________________
I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.
Bęthberry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2003, 08:10 AM   #5
Finwe
Deathless Sun
 
Finwe's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos
Posts: 2,609
Finwe has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Finwe
Sting

Bethberry: That's true. I do think that our "cult" or "religion" should be centered around Tolkien rather than the Valar, but what should it be called then? Somehow, I like saying that I'm Valarin rather than I'm a Tolkienist. Of course, it could also be because I love the Valar! Especially Oromë! Hunters on horseback are just my thing.

I also sincerely hope that we do not become like the Numenoreans. But then again, we don't have a Sauron to worry about. Or at least I hope we don't. [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] There isn't a Ban placed on us, so there isn't really anything to rebel against.
__________________
But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.
Finwe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2003, 12:08 PM   #6
The Silver-shod Muse
Shade of Carn Dűm
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: The shoulder of a poet, TX
Posts: 388
The Silver-shod Muse has just left Hobbiton.
Pipe

Quote:
Somehow, I like saying that I'm Valarin rather than I'm a Tolkienist.
For some reason, Middle Earth seems bigger, almost more legitimate, than the man himself, its very creator. Strange, isn't it?
__________________
"'You," he said, "tell her all. What good came to you? Do you rejoice that Maleldil became a man? Tell her of your joys, and of what profit you had when you made Maleldil and death acquainted.'" -Perelandra, by C.S. Lewis
The Silver-shod Muse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2003, 12:26 PM   #7
Lyta_Underhill
Haunted Halfling
 
Lyta_Underhill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: an uncounted length of steps--floating between air molecules
Posts: 841
Lyta_Underhill has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Quote:
For some reason, Middle Earth seems bigger, almost more legitimate, than the man himself, its very creator. Strange, isn't it?
That is interesting, and follows in the "elucidation of truth" vein, rather than a "creation of new truth" vein. I suppose this is what is meant by "sub-creation?" I don't have the benefit of having read criticism, although it would be interesting! I did read in one of Tolkien's letters, I forget which one and I don't have them to hand, but someone had asked him if he was into visual art, to which he replied he was not especially, the person had replied that artists had been drawing his world for a long time and that "you don't think YOU wrote that entire story yourself, do you?" in response to which Tolkien reflected "Pure Gandalf!"

Also, on the Valarin theme, I find it interesting that different camps have their own favorite Vala; perhaps Varda is most beloved, for she gave the Eldar the Stars to see by, even when there was no light in ME, but then there are those who would worship Yavanna, for having given them the lights of the Sun and Moon...interesting also that such ill-fortune could be attached to the vessels of the pure Light of the Trees of Valinor, the Silmarils. Does this say something about a lesser being's attempts to encapsulate an indefinable Light of the Universe? The inevitable discord realizing the fullness of the designs of Eru? I'm sure I'm going off the track now, and I'll stop there! Thanks for listening!

Cheers,
Lyta
__________________
“…she laid herself to rest upon Cerin Amroth; and there is her green grave, until the world is changed, and all the days of her life are utterly forgotten by men that come after, and elanor and niphredil bloom no more east of the Sea.”
Lyta_Underhill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2004, 08:21 AM   #8
HerenIstarion
Deadnight Chanter
 
HerenIstarion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,244
HerenIstarion is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Send a message via ICQ to HerenIstarion
uppers...
__________________
Egroeg Ihkhsal

- Would you believe in the love at first sight?
- Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time!
HerenIstarion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2004, 09:54 AM   #9
Boromir88
Laconic Loreman
 
Boromir88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 7,518
Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.
Send a message via AIM to Boromir88 Send a message via MSN to Boromir88
1420!

I hate MLA format, and MLA "professors." I also can't stand being politically correct, history books have been altered because of the big thing now, being "politically correct." Now, you have someone practically standing over you, "nope nope nope, can't call them that....they must be referred as this."
Boromir88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2004, 02:39 PM   #10
drigel
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
drigel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: commonplace city
Posts: 518
drigel has just left Hobbiton.
Boro - I agree totally. This might rub some downers the wrong way, but some of the academia analysis of Tolkien (especially early on) totally missed the point. I think a lot of it had to do with the timing: The post WWII environment did not lend a very sympathetic critical ear to a story based on northern european/germanic mythology.
drigel is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:09 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.