The Dunlendings - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Dimaldaeon · 01-06-2003, 01:39 PM

Is it just me or do the rest of you feel pity for the Dunlendings.
Look at it like this

They were living around the White Mountains then Numenoreans came and claimed the land so the Dunlendings became vassals to a foreign ruler.
Then the Gondorians give away their land to a race that used to carry out raids on the Dunlending's land.
Finally the Dunlandings were driven out of their land to, as Christopher Lee put it, "Scrape a living out of barren rock"
If any of you are Irish imagine it like the Plantations, hmmn in fact the "barren rock" quote now seems strangely familiar ie "To hell or to Connaught"

I'm sure that someone is going to disagree with me and state the many indescressions of these people ie the Oathbreakers, the invasion during the Long Winter and helping Saruman (I'm glad this wasn't emphasised too much in the film)

Bruce MacCulloch · 01-06-2003, 07:56 PM

At the risk of touching on a potentially touchy subject, as both a 'fan' of the Dunlendings and an avid Gaelophile myself, I had to reply to this thread.

Quote:

I'm sure that someone is going to disagree with me and state the many indescressions of these people ie the Oathbreakers, the invasion during the Long Winter and helping Saruman

To those that would bring these up as arguments against the inhabitants of Dunland, keep in mind that this is a people oppressed, at least from their viewpoint. The Irish-Dunlending comparison is very fitting. Consider the atrocities carried out against the common people of Ireland because of their adherence to their own culture and beliefs, all in the name of 'higher culture'. While we are not told much regarding the Dunlendings, it is easy to picture them in much the same situation. Irish Republicans have acted in concert with some very unsavory parties as the only way they knew of fighting the invader. The same could apply to the alliance of Dunland with Saruman.
So - Dimaldeon, I'm with you on this one - even if you're on the wrong island. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]
-Tha mi an't Albannaich gu chul.

doug*platypus · 01-07-2003, 06:35 AM

In the history of the world, and sometimes of Middle-Earth, it is difficult to choose between civilisations. A lot have been swept under the living room rug of life by cleaners like Genghis Khan, William the Conqueror, and that Spanish guy in South America. Some of the world's most peace loving cultures have been destroyed; these are pretty easy to emphasise with. On the other hand, many great cultures have emerged.

At the end of the day it might be difficult to choose sides, but I find it hard to sympathise with a people I know so little about such as the Dunlendings. Go Rohan!!

HerenIstarion · 07-03-2004, 05:14 AM

I beleive there is more to it then seen on the surface. Tolkien's loyalty lies with Rohan, but he is honest (one of his great points, too) enough to let some dubious things slip.

And, though Dunlandings are deceived by Saruman to believe that Rohirrim are cruel - i.e. not much direct dealings between two peoples, the grudge lies deeper - it is admitted that dunlendings are original inhabitants.

Yes, I believe I can sympathize with them, sure

Osse · 07-04-2004, 05:32 AM

It wasn't just Saruman that brought about the enmity between the two races/cultures... The wounds go back hundreds of years, right to the inception of the country of Rohan. To the Dunlendings, the Rohirrim were always the invaders of the north, usurpers and upstarts. I too pity the Dunlendings, especially the way they were manipulated.

(Don't you just love bringing out these old threads, especially the ones that didn't get much attention at the time, really interesting.

)

HerenIstarion · 07-05-2004, 02:07 AM

Quote:

Don't you just love bringing out these old threads, especially the ones that didn't get much attention at the time

I do. Usually, I do it on purpose

Noxomanus · 07-05-2004, 11:23 AM

It shouldn't be forgotten that the Dunlendings were also used by Saruman to breed half-Orcs I believe.
In UT, 'The Hunt for the Ring', 'the squint-eyed southerner at the Inn in Bree' was also said to be of Dunlendish origin and was thought to have Orc-blood. ( Is that an argument for sexual breeding by Orcs,by the way?) Anyways, he was an agent of Saruman..could his mixed blood have had something to do with that?

Encaitare · 07-18-2004, 09:26 PM

I could feel a bit sorry for the Dunlendings, yes. The Rohirrim did take over their land, and they were disillusioned.

That's interesting about the "half-orc" theory" of the "Squint-eyed Southerner." Did we ever learn more about him?

I'm going to twist the topic a little bit just to offer an opinion... Who else out there thinks that Gríma called Wormtongue has got rather a bit of Dunlendish blood in him? Since he's described as "once a man of Rohan" we can probably assume that he's at least part Rohirric and not just some baddie wandering around looking for old kings to talk to. And yet he is dark-haired, small, and pale as opposed to the tall blonde and generally Nordic-looking people of Rohan.

Then again, it could be discerned from the name of Eowyn's grandmother Morwen (dark maiden) that occasionally a dark-haired one popped up. However, she was from Lossarnach at the White Mountains, which used to be a territory of Gondor... and the Gondorians (at least, as we can tell from Denethor and his sons) were dark of hair. So perhap that's not a valid argument at all!

Very roundabout, I know, but it definitely seems to me that Gríma is partially Dunlendish, which could also explain why he's so bitter towards his own people of Rohan. Thoughts? Arguments?

Tuor of Gondolin · 07-21-2004, 01:50 PM

Actually, you can feel quite a bit of sympathy for the Dunlendings. After all, Eorl was given land that was presumably partially "ethnically cleansed" by Gondor previously. And the Dunlendings, or related peoples, were among those pushed around by the Numenoreans in the Second Age.
LOTR, Appendix A:
"At first the Numenoreans had come to Middle-earth as teachers and friends of lesser Men afflicted by Sauron; but now their havens became fortresses, holding wide coastlands in subjection. Atanamir and his successors levied heavy tribute, and the ships of the Numenoreans returned laden with tribute."

I've always thought the political approach of Rohan to the Dunlendings was very foolish, pushing them into adjacent, poor lands, but not driving them far away or reaching an accomadation (perhaps analagous to the World war I allies, humiliating Germany but leaving Germany's strength essentially intact).

Of course, my greatgrandparents on my mother's side were catholics from Northern Ireland, so I am inclined to empathize somewhat with the Dunlendings. And in LOTR there seems to be the hint of a Rohan/Dunland rapprochment. as there seems to be in Northern Ireland nowadays, at least in relative terms.

01-06-2003, 01:39 PM	#1
Dimaldaeon Wight Join Date: May 2002 Location: Ireland & damn proud of it. Posts: 125	The Dunlendings Is it just me or do the rest of you feel pity for the Dunlendings. Look at it like this They were living around the White Mountains then Numenoreans came and claimed the land so the Dunlendings became vassals to a foreign ruler. Then the Gondorians give away their land to a race that used to carry out raids on the Dunlending's land. Finally the Dunlandings were driven out of their land to, as Christopher Lee put it, "Scrape a living out of barren rock" If any of you are Irish imagine it like the Plantations, hmmn in fact the "barren rock" quote now seems strangely familiar ie "To hell or to Connaught" I'm sure that someone is going to disagree with me and state the many indescressions of these people ie the Oathbreakers, the invasion during the Long Winter and helping Saruman (I'm glad this wasn't emphasised too much in the film) __________________ Dear Saddam, Do not disunderestimate me.Yours G.W.Bush You're not drunk if you can still hold onto a blade of grass to stop yourself from falling off the face of the Earth

01-07-2003, 06:35 AM	#3
doug*platypus Delver in the Deep Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Aotearoa Posts: 960	In the history of the world, and sometimes of Middle-Earth, it is difficult to choose between civilisations. A lot have been swept under the living room rug of life by cleaners like Genghis Khan, William the Conqueror, and that Spanish guy in South America. Some of the world's most peace loving cultures have been destroyed; these are pretty easy to emphasise with. On the other hand, many great cultures have emerged. At the end of the day it might be difficult to choose sides, but I find it hard to sympathise with a people I know so little about such as the Dunlendings. Go Rohan!! __________________ But Gwindor answered: 'The doom lies in yourself, not in your name'.

07-03-2004, 05:14 AM	#4
HerenIstarion Deadnight Chanter Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 4,244	I beleive there is more to it then seen on the surface. Tolkien's loyalty lies with Rohan, but he is honest (one of his great points, too) enough to let some dubious things slip. And, though Dunlandings are deceived by Saruman to believe that Rohirrim are cruel - i.e. not much direct dealings between two peoples, the grudge lies deeper - it is admitted that dunlendings are original inhabitants. Yes, I believe I can sympathize with them, sure __________________ Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time!

07-04-2004, 05:32 AM	#5
Osse Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: The Encircling Sea, deciding which ship to ruin next...could be yours. Posts: 274	It wasn't just Saruman that brought about the enmity between the two races/cultures... The wounds go back hundreds of years, right to the inception of the country of Rohan. To the Dunlendings, the Rohirrim were always the invaders of the north, usurpers and upstarts. I too pity the Dunlendings, especially the way they were manipulated. (Don't you just love bringing out these old threads, especially the ones that didn't get much attention at the time, really interesting. ) __________________ 'A thinking tyrant, it seemed to Vetinari, had a much harder job than a ruler raised to power by some idiot system like democracy. At least HE could tell the people he was THEIR fault.'

07-05-2004, 11:23 AM	#7
Noxomanus Wight Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Netherlands Posts: 233	It shouldn't be forgotten that the Dunlendings were also used by Saruman to breed half-Orcs I believe. In UT, 'The Hunt for the Ring', 'the squint-eyed southerner at the Inn in Bree' was also said to be of Dunlendish origin and was thought to have Orc-blood. ( Is that an argument for sexual breeding by Orcs,by the way?) Anyways, he was an agent of Saruman..could his mixed blood have had something to do with that? __________________ Nothing is evil in the beginning,even Sauron wasn't

07-18-2004, 09:26 PM	#8
Encaitare Bittersweet Symphony Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: On the jolly starship Enterprise Posts: 1,814	I could feel a bit sorry for the Dunlendings, yes. The Rohirrim did take over their land, and they were disillusioned. That's interesting about the "half-orc" theory" of the "Squint-eyed Southerner." Did we ever learn more about him? I'm going to twist the topic a little bit just to offer an opinion... Who else out there thinks that Gríma called Wormtongue has got rather a bit of Dunlendish blood in him? Since he's described as "once a man of Rohan" we can probably assume that he's at least part Rohirric and not just some baddie wandering around looking for old kings to talk to. And yet he is dark-haired, small, and pale as opposed to the tall blonde and generally Nordic-looking people of Rohan. Then again, it could be discerned from the name of Eowyn's grandmother Morwen (dark maiden) that occasionally a dark-haired one popped up. However, she was from Lossarnach at the White Mountains, which used to be a territory of Gondor... and the Gondorians (at least, as we can tell from Denethor and his sons) were dark of hair. So perhap that's not a valid argument at all! Very roundabout, I know, but it definitely seems to me that Gríma is partially Dunlendish, which could also explain why he's so bitter towards his own people of Rohan. Thoughts? Arguments?

07-21-2004, 01:50 PM	#9
Tuor of Gondolin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Pennsylvania, WtR, passed Sarn Gebir: Above the rapids (1239 miles) BtR, passed Black Rider Stopping Place (31 miles) Posts: 1,548	Actually, you can feel quite a bit of sympathy for the Dunlendings. After all, Eorl was given land that was presumably partially "ethnically cleansed" by Gondor previously. And the Dunlendings, or related peoples, were among those pushed around by the Numenoreans in the Second Age. LOTR, Appendix A: "At first the Numenoreans had come to Middle-earth as teachers and friends of lesser Men afflicted by Sauron; but now their havens became fortresses, holding wide coastlands in subjection. Atanamir and his successors levied heavy tribute, and the ships of the Numenoreans returned laden with tribute." I've always thought the political approach of Rohan to the Dunlendings was very foolish, pushing them into adjacent, poor lands, but not driving them far away or reaching an accomadation (perhaps analagous to the World war I allies, humiliating Germany but leaving Germany's strength essentially intact). Of course, my greatgrandparents on my mother's side were catholics from Northern Ireland, so I am inclined to empathize somewhat with the Dunlendings. And in LOTR there seems to be the hint of a Rohan/Dunland rapprochment. as there seems to be in Northern Ireland nowadays, at least in relative terms.