The animals in ME - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Noxomanus · 06-01-2003, 01:28 AM

Being a great lover of animals (in a Radagast fashion) there are things considering the animals in ME I wonder about.

First of all,did the animals "awake" like The Children of Illuvátar?I seem to remember that in the Silm beasts just started to appear in the forests of ME.

And then,the monsters and terrible beasts send by Melkor and hunted by Oromë,would these be Tolkiens way of dealing with prehistoric fossil beasts?It's a fact we don't know how much time was between the shaping of Arda and the coming of the Elves but probably a veeeeery great amount of time.

And last,could those animals on the dark side be called corrupted and evil or were they just innocent and used by Melkor or Sauron? (and I'm not talking about intelligent Wargs or Dragons here,but simple animals like dogs or horses or Mumakil)

Aredhel Idril Telcontar · 06-01-2003, 05:53 AM

Actually, I think it says in Sil, that Yavanna created all living creatures (the olvar) and all plants (the kelvar). I could be mixing them up, but I think I'm right...
After Melkor took over Middle Earth, Yavanna put the plants to sleep (sound's harsh, right [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]) and the animals were twisted.
Many new ones were created in Valinor.
I hope I helped [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Lyra Greenleaf · 06-01-2003, 01:03 PM

You couldn't say that Mumakil or horses are evil, they were just being used. I think that's more a question of ethics than Tolkien! They had no choice, after all.

akhtene · 06-01-2003, 08:39 PM

Quote:

would these be Tolkiens way of dealing with prehistoric fossil beasts?

[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Who can now tell why dinosaurs died out? And in myths and tales monsters seldom if ever die of old age. There's always a hero to help. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

As for calling animals corrupted and evil, we should first decide whether they have reason and thus tell evil from good. (BTW, can the ability to speak be taken as the sign of reason?) If the creature is rational, he/she/it takes one or other side voluntary (eg. Huan) thus becoming good or evil. But then again, do we consider such creatures animals ?
If an animal has no sense (a horse or a bird) its just a matter of feeding and training. Can we call a knife corrupted if someone was cut with it? A question of ethics, really.

Lobelia · 06-01-2003, 09:05 PM

Hi! When I saw this topic, I hoped it might be about the general theme of animals in ME, such as the horses. Good or evil, the ones in THE HOBBIT get eaten! The only survivors of the innocent ponies are those Smaug didn't get around to eating before he was killed and those belonging to Beorn, because he had the sense to demand their return. In LOTR, however, the only horses killed are those belonging to the Ringwraiths, which might possibly have been stolen from Rohan, poor things, and Snowmane, who at least gets a hero's funeral. Does this say something about JRR's attitude? I don't know. He doesn't seem to like wolves very much, intelligent or not, there are no nice spiders and while the eagles are always good,ravens are often bad (not always - the ones in THE HOBBIT weren't). Maybe it's a bit like a reflection of the sentient races?

Birdland · 06-02-2003, 03:10 AM

Noxomanus - I, too, remember commenting on the lack of "good" animals in Tolkien's work, especially considering the role that animals have played in the world's mythologies.

Here's some comments from my earlier thread: The "evil" animals of ME

Noxomanus · 06-02-2003, 09:01 AM

I'd have loved Tolkien to have been more informative about his animals.

Frodo Baggins · 06-03-2003, 08:33 PM

Yes there seems to be a lack of good animals. The only really good animals I see are Shadowfax, Asfaloth, adn Gwaihir.

I'm miffed because JRRT had cats as being from Mordor. I ADORE cats and have three sweet ones myself that I just love to pieces, and NONE of them come from Mordor.

Noxomanus · 06-04-2003, 09:05 AM

Some people take it all way to serious......but maybe Tolkien was afraid of cats. I don't "fear" cats but I can believe some people might.

Frodo Baggins · 06-04-2003, 09:19 PM

If Tolkien wanted the ultimate Shelob killer though, a cat would have been great. Just yesterday one of my cats caught a rather large spider, pulled off three of its legs, and then drowned it in the swimming pool. Couldn't you imagine a BIG kitty ripping off Shelob's legs and then drowning her in the sea of Rhun?

Rumil · 06-05-2003, 05:08 PM

I'm curious as to the extent of animal 'intelligence' in Middle Earth.

There are many animals with the power of speech or which appear to understand or respond to complex speech or instructions eg. Roac and Carc the ravens, the great eagles, wargs, mearas, Huan the wolfhound, Tevildo, Carcharoth, the crebain, spiders of Mirkwood, Beorn's servants, even the perceptive fox.

Also there is the remarkable statement that all peoples were split between good and evil during the war of the Last Alliance (except the elves), including the beasts and the birds.

I wonder if anyone has any insight into why Tolkien chose some species as intelligent and why others were assigned as good and evil.

(Plus I'm rather concerned about the possibility of a flock of rampaging Second Age Saurionic killer sheep, but there you go)

[ June 05, 2003: Message edited by: Rumil ]

Birdland · 06-05-2003, 09:04 PM

Quote:

I'm rather concerned about the possibility of a flock of rampaging Second Age Saurionic killer sheep, but there you go

No, Rumil! Everyone knows that sheep go to Valinor, goats go to the Void.

I'm guessing, like everything else in the book, Tolkien based his choice of animals on Northern European mythology. I know swans, ravens, dragons, horses were all powerful animal spirits. (Didn't Odin ride an eight-legged horse?)

I notice the owl didn't rate a mention in Tolkien's work - good or evil - though it is popular in Celtic myth.

06-05-2003, 10:13 PM

+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*
the only horses killed are those belonging to the Ringwraiths, which might possibly have been stolen from Rohan, poor things (reposted)
+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*
The horses mentioned above were indeed stolen from Rohan. The Ringwraithes [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] (if my memory serves right [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] ) tried to buy them but none in Rohan would have anything to do with them. I may be wrong but that is what I somehow recall. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

***Sharkû*** · 06-05-2003, 10:55 PM

I would wager that the animals in the books are less those of Northern European mythology, but simply those of Northern Europe, which is the approximate location of the north-west of Middle-Earth, where the main stories take place. Flora and fauna would be influenced less by deliberate decisions of the author, but the climatic, geographic, and historic circumstances.

Some animals are different in appearance and temper because they were affected by Morgoth and turned into "monsters of ivory and horn" (passim throughout the later QS writings such as HomeX). These include, of course, both beasts from the north-west of Middle-Earth and Europe, and from everywhere else.

Animals with reasoning and speech are a different matter. Tolkien admits that "these have been rather lightly adopted from less 'serious' mythologies, but play a part which cannot now be excised" (MT).

Tolkien explains this further in Myths Transformed:
"Living things in Aman. As the Valar would robe themselves like the Children, many of the Maiar robed themselves like other lesser living things, as trees, flowers, beasts. (Huan.)"

However, this is at least partially contradicted by the later statement "In summary: I think it must be assumed that [orcs] 'talking' is not necessarily the sign of the possession of a 'rational soul' or fëa...talking was largely echoic (cf. parrots), in The Lord of the Rings Sauron is said to have devised a language for them.... The same sort of thing may be said of Húan and the Eagles: they were taught language by the Valar, and raised to a higher level - but they still had no fëar." (ibid.)

Some discussion on the matter can be found in the Ealar and Incarnation thread.

HerenIstarion · 08-09-2004, 02:34 PM

Ëalar and Incarnation

Encaitare · 08-09-2004, 06:11 PM

It seems to me that in most cases the only creatures which can really be held accountable for any evil acts they do are the ones who are "sentient," such as Shelob and Huan. The others seem to simply have been taken by the darkness and corrupted (ie: Mumakil, crebain).

I wasn't aware that cats were said to have come from Mordor! Very cool... well, they certainly are sneaky.

HerenIstarion · 08-10-2004, 01:15 AM

Quote:

they certainly are sneaky

They are, but the've got style to them

. Just as Annatar, before fixing finally on being Sauron

Mithalwen · 08-10-2004, 11:41 AM

I doubt that any cat would care about anyone's opinion of them ...... dogs think they are humans... cats think they are gods.... and they do have Baudelaire and Verlaine to fight their corner... of course cats do have that love of sitting on paper which is annoying for scholars.......

In the UK cats were regarded as both lucky and unlucky according to region .... the long association with witchcraft maybe...

Tolkien makes up for the eaten ponies in the Hobbit in LOTR .... Bill and Merry's ponies all survive ..... even Boromir's horse gets home.... but the talking animal stuff... hmmmm in the cases where it can't be explained by "lesser Maiar" or certqain individuals eg ... Beorn/ Radagast having a particular understanding of otherwise ordinary animals ....well it just seems a weakness to me...... keep thinking of Skippy and Lassie...

But the thing I want to know concerns Asfaloth ..... the "elf horse" .... is there more significance to that than him being a horse owned by an elf? In the appendixes it mentions Glorfindel riding up on his white horse - surely it can't have been the same one..... or is there an implication of some race of immortal elf horses......?

Lobelia · 08-12-2004, 09:21 PM

But the thing I want to know concerns Asfaloth ..... the "elf horse" .... is there more significance to that than him being a horse owned by an elf? In the appendixes it mentions Glorfindel riding up on his white horse - surely it can't have been the same one..... or is there an implication of some race of immortal elf horses......?[/QUOTE]

Good point, Mithalwen! I wonder about this too. Glorfindel's horse is pretty bright and able to keep Frodo on his back, just as Shadowfax does with his riders. Do the Elves have - well, Elvish horses, or do they just breed them as beautifully as they do everything else?

Maybe Glorfindel's horse has a meara in his background? After all, the Rohirrim are just ordinary humans who are good at breeding horses, and they can't possibly have found a way to breed the ancestors of Shadowfax. Maybe the Elves did it originally? Does anyone know?

THE Ka · 08-13-2004, 03:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I doubt that any cat would care about anyone's opinion of them ...... dogs think they are humans... cats think they are gods.... and they do have Baudelaire and Verlaine to fight their corner... of course cats do have that love of sitting on paper which is annoying for scholars.......

In the UK cats were regarded as both lucky and unlucky according to region .... the long association with witchcraft maybe...

Tolkien makes up for the eaten ponies in the Hobbit in LOTR .... Bill and Merry's ponies all survive ..... even Boromir's horse gets home.... but the talking animal stuff... hmmmm in the cases where it can't be explained by "lesser Maiar" or certqain individuals eg ... Beorn/ Radagast having a particular understanding of otherwise ordinary animals ....well it just seems a weakness to me...... keep thinking of Skippy and Lassie...

But the thing I want to know concerns Asfaloth ..... the "elf horse" .... is there more significance to that than him being a horse owned by an elf? In the appendixes it mentions Glorfindel riding up on his white horse - surely it can't have been the same one..... or is there an implication of some race of immortal elf horses......?

I can see why Tolkien based most of his works upon the ethnics of myth from northern europe... If Tolkien had grown and lived in northern africa and the middle east, the fact that cats were governed by Sauron's will would have been changed dramatically, (think of cats being viewed and respected much like shadowflax or the Eagles). If you know your Ancient Egyptian and Persian and Lybian mythology you might have an understanding of the point i'm trying to make.

As for "witchcraft" and cats... First of all, as a Scholar i would like to point out that the time period of the Inquisitions was the churches way of establishing (and with vindictive jealousy against both royalty and state) that they were in "command". Also, they wished to establish and utterly control the roles of both women and men. When cats came into the matter is untraceable, but it was one way and symbol the church saw as influencing the stupid multitude with their cause. Thus, cats went from good, okay, and then to "evil".

Since this cat subject seems to be interesting to a wide range of people, i would suguest this valueable resource to all who wish to read it:

Cult of the Cat by:Patricia Dale-Green (it is currently out of print at some websites but, it can be found in mostly any buy and sell bookstore.good luck!)

Blessed Be, THE Ka

Mithalwen · 08-13-2004, 11:16 AM

I am not sure I think there is anything "magical" abou the Mearas...beyond a remarkable bloodline, carefully nurtured by the Rohirrim and reserved like anything of the finest quality for the greatest among them ..Shadowfax....well he may come almost into the Huan category.....

I know that Tolkien felt that Elves had an instinctive understanding of animals and so I don't think Asfaloth's obedience is implausible even if he were an "ordinary" horse albeit reared and schooled by elves.... I suppose it is simplest to view the term "elf horse" as being used merely to distinguish it from the black riders horses..... and maybe Glorfindel always had white horses..... like some people always buy the same make of car..

Sandro · 08-13-2004, 11:19 PM

Great point, Ka! The Egyptians revered the cats (even built a necropolis for them), scarabs, falcons, cows, etc. They feared such animals as snakes, crocodiles, and jackels. respected, but feared. Thus the revered ones were "good" and the feared ones "bad". Same thing with Tolkien.

Plus, Tolkien never says wolves are evil. He says that the Wargs are a malicious and violent breed of wolves. If my memory serves me, no one is ever attacked by wolvee, just wargs. some things are bred to be evil. Not all the Eagles were good, as mentioned in The Hobbit. Not all the Ravens were bad. Some animals, such as the Mumakil, were just put to evil means.

Lobelia · 08-14-2004, 02:49 AM

Re: cats. I think Tolkien's reference to cats as the fauna of Mordor was pretty much tongue in cheek - someone had asked permission to use LOTR names for a line of Siamese cats. I have never owned one, but a friend of mind keeps Siamese cats and from what she says of them, she might agree! You really don't want to get on their wrong side.

Besides, can't you just see the Dark Lord with a cat on his lap?

(Assuming he was embodied at the time.)

Mithalwen · 08-14-2004, 09:58 AM

A white one maybe "I have been expecting you, Mr Baggins...." Sauron AKA Ernst Stravro Blofeld.....

Evisse the Blue · 08-16-2004, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Besides, can't you just see the Dark Lord with a cat on his lap?

I just got an image of Sauron as Dr. Evil (from Austin Powers)

Cats as conected to evil: You know how cats prefer certain places over others? Well, it's said that the places that the cats prefer to curl up in are charged with negative energy. Before you dismiss this with a laugh: I got lots of example of cats hanging around persons who were sick more than around healthy persons, and as close to the afflicted part as possible. Also, my friend's cat who is usually very wild comes runing to jump on my friend's lap whenever she's angry or arguing or raising her voice. Taking notice of this, she started using a special harsh voice which is reserved only for the cat, when she wants to call her. Cats are weird creatures. I for one don't hold it against Tolkien that he saw them as inhabitants of Mordor. He must have had some experience with cats.

Mithalwen · 08-16-2004, 12:51 PM

I must admit I missed the cats from mordor thing.... but his cat poem in "bombadil " is nice ...but Queen Beruthiel and her cats.... familiars.... maybe ...

I would say that the English are fonder of cats than most... but I wonder... since Gondor represents Italy ..... do cats have any particular negative associations for the Italians ?

Tuor of Gondolin · 08-16-2004, 04:21 PM

"I just got an image of Sauron as Dr. Evil (from Austin Powers) "
----------------------------
So who's the Witch King, Scotty or Mini-me?

THE Ka · 08-16-2004, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuor of Gondolin

"I just got an image of Sauron as Dr. Evil (from Austin Powers) "
----------------------------
So who's the Witch King, Scotty or Mini-me?

Hmm, this question really depends if the reader has seen Goldmember (personally one of my favorites...). If you remember, mini me is later in the movie "releaved" of his office as being Dr.Evil's favorite creation, thus mini me joins up with Austin. Scotty on the other hand, seems to be a flower waiting to bloom (or more to the point, a bomb waiting to explode, that poor boy had emotional problems...) anyway, scotty later becomes Dr.evils favorite and co-ruler. Another very important thing is, at the end of the movie Austin and Dr.Evil (a.k.a "Douggy") learn that they are brothers. Even though this fact was stated, Scotty refused to accept this. Mini-me on the other hand, did.

So, hmm... who really is the Leader of the Nazgul in this situation?

My best asumption is that it is Mini-me, because If you remember the Nazgul were bound to Sauron's will as well as the ring's. And since Dr.evil and Sauron are being displayed in comparison, Mini-me would be the leader of the Nazgul. (Mini-me accepted that Austin and Dr.Evil were brothers and "followed" Dr.Evil.

Wow. Who ever knew that you could make an Austin Powers movie seem so, so... Philiosophical?!

Nevermind, that was a waste of typing...

(you can start to boo and make other rude noises now.)

THE Ka · 08-16-2004, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evisse the Blue

I just got an image of Sauron as Dr. Evil (from Austin Powers)

Cats as conected to evil: You know how cats prefer certain places over others? Well, it's said that the places that the cats prefer to curl up in are charged with negative energy. Before you dismiss this with a laugh: I got lots of example of cats hanging around persons who were sick more than around healthy persons, and as close to the afflicted part as possible. Also, my friend's cat who is usually very wild comes runing to jump on my friend's lap whenever she's angry or arguing or raising her voice. Taking notice of this, she started using a special harsh voice which is reserved only for the cat, when she wants to call her. Cats are weird creatures. I for one don't hold it against Tolkien that he saw them as inhabitants of Mordor. He must have had some experience with cats.

Cats liking negative energy? (don't worry, i dabble in the Metaphysical myself

) With that in mind, my cat might have a reversed personality and aura. Whenever i am sick my cat will run off and hide in the back of my closet (preferably on the clean laundry) when i am healthy and or ok, my cat will think nothing except plopping herself down in my lap. As for yelling, both my cat and dog run for cover... (simply because i'm angry and might be throwing something.)

But, as for my brother's cat, he seems to be the embodiment of Sauron himself... Very self-centered and two faced. My brother can no longer bring him over because our cats will play cat "armageddon" in my living room. my cat absolutely will not tolerate my brother's cat in any way. ( She sulks off when my brother tries to pet her.) When i come over to my brother's house, it is quiet different. His cat will follow me around and seem to play with affections, purring and rubbing on my ankles one minute, hissing and chacing me down the hall the next.

Either that or simply because both my dog and cat grew up together and both good and bad qualities rubbed off and on betix them.

06-01-2003, 01:28 AM	#1
Noxomanus Wight Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Netherlands Posts: 233	The animals in ME Being a great lover of animals (in a Radagast fashion) there are things considering the animals in ME I wonder about. First of all,did the animals "awake" like The Children of Illuvátar?I seem to remember that in the Silm beasts just started to appear in the forests of ME. And then,the monsters and terrible beasts send by Melkor and hunted by Oromë,would these be Tolkiens way of dealing with prehistoric fossil beasts?It's a fact we don't know how much time was between the shaping of Arda and the coming of the Elves but probably a veeeeery great amount of time. And last,could those animals on the dark side be called corrupted and evil or were they just innocent and used by Melkor or Sauron? (and I'm not talking about intelligent Wargs or Dragons here,but simple animals like dogs or horses or Mumakil) __________________ Nothing is evil in the beginning,even Sauron wasn't

06-01-2003, 05:53 AM	#2
Aredhel Idril Telcontar Wight Join Date: May 2003 Location: Hanging on a sheer cliff with Maedhros Posts: 113	Actually, I think it says in Sil, that Yavanna created all living creatures (the olvar) and all plants (the kelvar). I could be mixing them up, but I think I'm right... After Melkor took over Middle Earth, Yavanna put the plants to sleep (sound's harsh, right [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]) and the animals were twisted. Many new ones were created in Valinor. I hope I helped [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ "I am your sister and not your servant, and beyond your bounds I will go as seems good to me." Tai uzdaryk mane Tevyne savyje/kaip giesme gerkleje mirtis uzdaro/ ir kaip uzdaro vakara naktis/ o Tu man atsakai: as Tavo laisve

06-01-2003, 01:03 PM	#3
Lyra Greenleaf The Diaphanous Dryad Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: R toL: 531, past the wild path Posts: 1,152	You couldn't say that Mumakil or horses are evil, they were just being used. I think that's more a question of ethics than Tolkien! They had no choice, after all. __________________ “Sylphs of the forest,” I whispered. “Spirits of oak, beech and ash. Dryads of Rowan and hazel, hear us. You who have guided and guarded our every footstep, you who have sheltered our growth, we honour you." the Forbidden Link

06-02-2003, 09:01 AM	#7
Noxomanus Wight Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Netherlands Posts: 233	I'd have loved Tolkien to have been more informative about his animals. __________________ Nothing is evil in the beginning,even Sauron wasn't

06-03-2003, 08:33 PM	#8
Frodo Baggins Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Bag-End, Under-Hill, Hobbiton-across-the Water Posts: 606	Yes there seems to be a lack of good animals. The only really good animals I see are Shadowfax, Asfaloth, adn Gwaihir. I'm miffed because JRRT had cats as being from Mordor. I ADORE cats and have three sweet ones myself that I just love to pieces, and NONE of them come from Mordor. __________________ "I'm your huckleberry....that's just my game."

06-01-2003, 09:05 PM	#5
Lobelia Wight Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 150	Hi! When I saw this topic, I hoped it might be about the general theme of animals in ME, such as the horses. Good or evil, the ones in THE HOBBIT get eaten! The only survivors of the innocent ponies are those Smaug didn't get around to eating before he was killed and those belonging to Beorn, because he had the sense to demand their return. In LOTR, however, the only horses killed are those belonging to the Ringwraiths, which might possibly have been stolen from Rohan, poor things, and Snowmane, who at least gets a hero's funeral. Does this say something about JRR's attitude? I don't know. He doesn't seem to like wolves very much, intelligent or not, there are no nice spiders and while the eagles are always good,ravens are often bad (not always - the ones in THE HOBBIT weren't). Maybe it's a bit like a reflection of the sentient races?

06-02-2003, 03:10 AM	#6
Birdland Ghastly Neekerbreeker Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto Posts: 1,751	Noxomanus - I, too, remember commenting on the lack of "good" animals in Tolkien's work, especially considering the role that animals have played in the world's mythologies. Here's some comments from my earlier thread: The "evil" animals of ME

06-04-2003, 09:05 AM	#9
Noxomanus Wight Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Netherlands Posts: 233	Some people take it all way to serious......but maybe Tolkien was afraid of cats. I don't "fear" cats but I can believe some people might. __________________ Nothing is evil in the beginning,even Sauron wasn't

06-04-2003, 09:19 PM	#10
Frodo Baggins Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Bag-End, Under-Hill, Hobbiton-across-the Water Posts: 606	If Tolkien wanted the ultimate Shelob killer though, a cat would have been great. Just yesterday one of my cats caught a rather large spider, pulled off three of its legs, and then drowned it in the swimming pool. Couldn't you imagine a BIG kitty ripping off Shelob's legs and then drowning her in the sea of Rhun? __________________ "I'm your huckleberry....that's just my game."

06-05-2003, 05:08 PM	#11
Rumil Sage & Onions Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Britain Posts: 894	I'm curious as to the extent of animal 'intelligence' in Middle Earth. There are many animals with the power of speech or which appear to understand or respond to complex speech or instructions eg. Roac and Carc the ravens, the great eagles, wargs, mearas, Huan the wolfhound, Tevildo, Carcharoth, the crebain, spiders of Mirkwood, Beorn's servants, even the perceptive fox. Also there is the remarkable statement that all peoples were split between good and evil during the war of the Last Alliance (except the elves), including the beasts and the birds. I wonder if anyone has any insight into why Tolkien chose some species as intelligent and why others were assigned as good and evil. (Plus I'm rather concerned about the possibility of a flock of rampaging Second Age Saurionic killer sheep, but there you go) [ June 05, 2003: Message edited by: Rumil ] __________________ Rumil of Coedhirion

06-05-2003, 10:13 PM	#13
Jerel Guest Posts: n/a	+++++++++++++++++++++* the only horses killed are those belonging to the Ringwraiths, which might possibly have been stolen from Rohan, poor things (reposted) +++++++++++++++++++++* The horses mentioned above were indeed stolen from Rohan. The Ringwraithes [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] (if my memory serves right [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] ) tried to buy them but none in Rohan would have anything to do with them. I may be wrong but that is what I somehow recall. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

06-05-2003, 10:55 PM	#14
*Sharkû* Hungry Ghoul Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 1,719	I would wager that the animals in the books are less those of Northern European mythology, but simply those of Northern Europe, which is the approximate location of the north-west of Middle-Earth, where the main stories take place. Flora and fauna would be influenced less by deliberate decisions of the author, but the climatic, geographic, and historic circumstances. Some animals are different in appearance and temper because they were affected by Morgoth and turned into "monsters of ivory and horn" (passim throughout the later QS writings such as HomeX). These include, of course, both beasts from the north-west of Middle-Earth and Europe, and from everywhere else. Animals with reasoning and speech are a different matter. Tolkien admits that "these have been rather lightly adopted from less 'serious' mythologies, but play a part which cannot now be excised" (MT). Tolkien explains this further in Myths Transformed: "Living things in Aman. As the Valar would robe themselves like the Children, many of the Maiar robed themselves like other lesser living things, as trees, flowers, beasts. (Huan.)" However, this is at least partially contradicted by the later statement "In summary: I think it must be assumed that [orcs] 'talking' is not necessarily the sign of the possession of a 'rational soul' or fëa...talking was largely echoic (cf. parrots), in The Lord of the Rings Sauron is said to have devised a language for them.... The same sort of thing may be said of Húan and the Eagles: they were taught language by the Valar, and raised to a higher level - but they still had no fëar." (ibid.) Some discussion on the matter can be found in the Ealar and Incarnation thread.

08-09-2004, 02:34 PM	#15
HerenIstarion Deadnight Chanter Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 4,244	updating a link Ëalar and Incarnation __________________ Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time!

08-09-2004, 06:11 PM	#16
Encaitare Bittersweet Symphony Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: On the jolly starship Enterprise Posts: 1,814	It seems to me that in most cases the only creatures which can really be held accountable for any evil acts they do are the ones who are "sentient," such as Shelob and Huan. The others seem to simply have been taken by the darkness and corrupted (ie: Mumakil, crebain). I wasn't aware that cats were said to have come from Mordor! Very cool... well, they certainly are sneaky.

08-10-2004, 11:41 AM	#18
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,458	I doubt that any cat would care about anyone's opinion of them ...... dogs think they are humans... cats think they are gods.... and they do have Baudelaire and Verlaine to fight their corner... of course cats do have that love of sitting on paper which is annoying for scholars....... In the UK cats were regarded as both lucky and unlucky according to region .... the long association with witchcraft maybe... Tolkien makes up for the eaten ponies in the Hobbit in LOTR .... Bill and Merry's ponies all survive ..... even Boromir's horse gets home.... but the talking animal stuff... hmmmm in the cases where it can't be explained by "lesser Maiar" or certqain individuals eg ... Beorn/ Radagast having a particular understanding of otherwise ordinary animals ....well it just seems a weakness to me...... keep thinking of Skippy and Lassie... But the thing I want to know concerns Asfaloth ..... the "elf horse" .... is there more significance to that than him being a horse owned by an elf? In the appendixes it mentions Glorfindel riding up on his white horse - surely it can't have been the same one..... or is there an implication of some race of immortal elf horses......? __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

08-12-2004, 09:21 PM	#19
Lobelia Wight Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 150	But the thing I want to know concerns Asfaloth ..... the "elf horse" .... is there more significance to that than him being a horse owned by an elf? In the appendixes it mentions Glorfindel riding up on his white horse - surely it can't have been the same one..... or is there an implication of some race of immortal elf horses......?[/QUOTE] Good point, Mithalwen! I wonder about this too. Glorfindel's horse is pretty bright and able to keep Frodo on his back, just as Shadowfax does with his riders. Do the Elves have - well, Elvish horses, or do they just breed them as beautifully as they do everything else? Maybe Glorfindel's horse has a meara in his background? After all, the Rohirrim are just ordinary humans who are good at breeding horses, and they can't possibly have found a way to breed the ancestors of Shadowfax. Maybe the Elves did it originally? Does anyone know?

08-13-2004, 11:16 AM	#21
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,458	I am not sure I think there is anything "magical" abou the Mearas...beyond a remarkable bloodline, carefully nurtured by the Rohirrim and reserved like anything of the finest quality for the greatest among them ..Shadowfax....well he may come almost into the Huan category..... I know that Tolkien felt that Elves had an instinctive understanding of animals and so I don't think Asfaloth's obedience is implausible even if he were an "ordinary" horse albeit reared and schooled by elves.... I suppose it is simplest to view the term "elf horse" as being used merely to distinguish it from the black riders horses..... and maybe Glorfindel always had white horses..... like some people always buy the same make of car.. __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

08-13-2004, 11:19 PM	#22
Sandro Pile O'Bones Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Always here, never there. Posts: 25	Great point, Ka! The Egyptians revered the cats (even built a necropolis for them), scarabs, falcons, cows, etc. They feared such animals as snakes, crocodiles, and jackels. respected, but feared. Thus the revered ones were "good" and the feared ones "bad". Same thing with Tolkien. Plus, Tolkien never says wolves are evil. He says that the Wargs are a malicious and violent breed of wolves. If my memory serves me, no one is ever attacked by wolvee, just wargs. some things are bred to be evil. Not all the Eagles were good, as mentioned in The Hobbit. Not all the Ravens were bad. Some animals, such as the Mumakil, were just put to evil means. __________________ "It is a strange fate that we should suffer so much fear and doubt over so small a thing. Such a little thing." -Boromir, Captain of Gondor

08-14-2004, 02:49 AM	#23
Lobelia Wight Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 150	Re: cats. I think Tolkien's reference to cats as the fauna of Mordor was pretty much tongue in cheek - someone had asked permission to use LOTR names for a line of Siamese cats. I have never owned one, but a friend of mind keeps Siamese cats and from what she says of them, she might agree! You really don't want to get on their wrong side. Besides, can't you just see the Dark Lord with a cat on his lap? (Assuming he was embodied at the time.)

08-14-2004, 09:58 AM	#24
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,458	A white one maybe "I have been expecting you, Mr Baggins...." Sauron AKA Ernst Stravro Blofeld..... __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

08-16-2004, 12:51 PM	#26
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,458	I must admit I missed the cats from mordor thing.... but his cat poem in "bombadil " is nice ...but Queen Beruthiel and her cats.... familiars.... maybe ... I would say that the English are fonder of cats than most... but I wonder... since Gondor represents Italy ..... do cats have any particular negative associations for the Italians ? __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

08-16-2004, 04:21 PM	#27
Tuor of Gondolin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Pennsylvania, WtR, passed Sarn Gebir: Above the rapids (1239 miles) BtR, passed Black Rider Stopping Place (31 miles) Posts: 1,548	"I just got an image of Sauron as Dr. Evil (from Austin Powers) " ---------------------------- So who's the Witch King, Scotty or Mini-me? __________________ Aure Entuluva!