Languages - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

davem · 05-30-2003, 02:35 AM

Ok, I'm trying to clarify my ideas on Tolkien's use of the languages of ME. Please tell me if this is all wrong- I'm trying to formulate the concept.

Quenya as a language is 'designed' to deal with the experiences/concepts of the High Elves of Valinor. Sindarin has no need of such 'high' concepts, as the Sindar have no direct experience of the Blessed Realm. So Sindarin is inevitably a less profound language, & a Sindarin speaker will find it more difficult to understand & speak of concepts which would be familiar to a Quenya speaker. So, the Elves of Beleriand find it is not possible to learn Quenya, whereas the returning exiles can learn the less complex language of Sindarin easily. But this is also symbolic of their 'fall'. As in Numenor, where they reject Sindarin & choose the 'lesser' language of Adunaic. Each 'descent' in language reflects a 'fall' away from perfection. It is also significant that in the early legends, where the focus is on Valinor, & the language is Quenya, the Valar are prominent in the legends (obviously!, but go with me), but with the focus on the returning Noldor, we have both the Valar sinking into the background, & the descent from Quenya to Sindarin. The Language which can properly express & describe the Valar is changed to a language which can't do that half as well, & the sense of presence of the Valar is also lessened.

In Numenor, the change to an even less profound, a 'lower' language is a result of a rejection of the Valar, & such 'high' spiritual things.

In other words, what happens is a kind of feedback loop - if I'm using the correct term - As the peoples of ME move away from 'higher' things, their language 'devolves', & as their language 'devolves' they become less & less capable of concieving & expressing complex spiritual concepts. Westron would be a continuation of this, & the 'lowest' form, in Tolkien's works, is the Black Speech, which is incapable of expressing spiritual realities, & is only really capable of dealing with ideas of power, cruelty, ugliness, etc.

Would this also account for the increasing absence of organised religious practice/complex theology in the Third Age.

As I said, this is just something I'm trying to formulate. Its what I get from Flieger's Splintered Light, but I may have misunderstood her.

Finwe · 05-30-2003, 07:35 AM

Wow! That really does make sense. If you also follow that logic, and use English as an example, the "quality" of our speech has indeed degraded. Compare how the teenagers spoke in the Elizabethan Era to how they speak now. There is a massive level of degradation.

05-30-2003, 02:35 AM	#1
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,240	Languages Ok, I'm trying to clarify my ideas on Tolkien's use of the languages of ME. Please tell me if this is all wrong- I'm trying to formulate the concept. Quenya as a language is 'designed' to deal with the experiences/concepts of the High Elves of Valinor. Sindarin has no need of such 'high' concepts, as the Sindar have no direct experience of the Blessed Realm. So Sindarin is inevitably a less profound language, & a Sindarin speaker will find it more difficult to understand & speak of concepts which would be familiar to a Quenya speaker. So, the Elves of Beleriand find it is not possible to learn Quenya, whereas the returning exiles can learn the less complex language of Sindarin easily. But this is also symbolic of their 'fall'. As in Numenor, where they reject Sindarin & choose the 'lesser' language of Adunaic. Each 'descent' in language reflects a 'fall' away from perfection. It is also significant that in the early legends, where the focus is on Valinor, & the language is Quenya, the Valar are prominent in the legends (obviously!, but go with me), but with the focus on the returning Noldor, we have both the Valar sinking into the background, & the descent from Quenya to Sindarin. The Language which can properly express & describe the Valar is changed to a language which can't do that half as well, & the sense of presence of the Valar is also lessened. In Numenor, the change to an even less profound, a 'lower' language is a result of a rejection of the Valar, & such 'high' spiritual things. In other words, what happens is a kind of feedback loop - if I'm using the correct term - As the peoples of ME move away from 'higher' things, their language 'devolves', & as their language 'devolves' they become less & less capable of concieving & expressing complex spiritual concepts. Westron would be a continuation of this, & the 'lowest' form, in Tolkien's works, is the Black Speech, which is incapable of expressing spiritual realities, & is only really capable of dealing with ideas of power, cruelty, ugliness, etc. Would this also account for the increasing absence of organised religious practice/complex theology in the Third Age. As I said, this is just something I'm trying to formulate. Its what I get from Flieger's Splintered Light, but I may have misunderstood her. __________________ “Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects."

05-30-2003, 07:35 AM	#2
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	Wow! That really does make sense. If you also follow that logic, and use English as an example, the "quality" of our speech has indeed degraded. Compare how the teenagers spoke in the Elizabethan Era to how they speak now. There is a massive level of degradation. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.