How would it all be? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Alatar_69 · 10-31-2002, 03:48 AM

What would have happened had Morgoth corrupted the hearts of men like the house of Beor and men never made it to the Elves? Would the combined power of men and morgoth have been enough to destroy the elves or would the elves of old have united to defeat this new enemy or even would the mighty Valar have intervened?

Pallando B.C · 10-31-2002, 03:53 AM

Once again, a very debateable point Alatar. Men+Morgorth could have indeed take over the exiled elves but Tolkien's love for the Elves and hate for evil would have definately not let that happen, so in that case as you have said , The Valar of Vanyar would certianly intervend

amyrlis · 10-31-2002, 01:50 PM

Hhmmm... I think that regardless of the loyalty of Man, the events of the First Age would have remained much the same with the Vanyar and Valar intervening and casting Morgoth into the Void. However, the events of the Third Age would have been quite different. If all the men had been corrupted, then I would imagine that, contrary to the theme in LOTR, the Age of Man would not have been approaching. The elves were waning in ME partly because of their weariness and partly because their time was coming to a close and the Age of Man was upon them. If there was to be no Age of Man, then I would think that more elves may have come from the west in search of kingdoms and adventure, as the Noldor did. So, elves would have continued to thrive. But, Sauron would have still been around, and the rings as well. In defeating Sauron and the Ring, the elves would have cast their own doom by diminishing the power of their own rings. So there lies a dilema, without Men in the picture, what would the elves have done about Sauron? Flee Middle Earth and leave it to him and his minions? Or defeat him, yet diminish their own powers enough that life in Middle Earth would no longer be desirable. That is if the Elf Kingdoms would have united against Sauron - we know how those Elf Kings can be.

10-31-2002, 03:30 PM

I think that had Morgoth been successful in corrupting men of the three houses of the Edain that the first age would have turned out completely different. First, the men and Elves were utterly defeated by Morgoth anyway, and only through the intervention by the hosts of the Valar were they saved. Second, the intervention by the host of the Valar was a direct result of the voyage of Earendil the Blessed. Had men been corrupted by Morgoth, Earendil would never have been born, as his Father Tuor wouldn't have met his mother Idril in Gondolin. So based on that, had Morgoth been successful with his plan to corrupt men, things would have turned out far differently.

amyrlis · 11-01-2002, 03:21 PM

Good point Timloth, about Earendil! I had not thought of that. Now if there was no Tuor, would Maeglin have had his way with Idril? I shudder to think of the offspring from such a loathful relation. Without Earendil there would have been no intervention by the Valar, so it almost seems that Morgoth's victory would be eminent. Good point indeed!

11-01-2002, 04:09 PM

One could also ask without Tuor would Maeglin have betrayed Gondolin as he did? Eol wasn't right in the head, so to speak, and Maeglin was a little suspect, but I think that Idril's love for Tuor (and Turgon's for that matter) made him do what he did.

Keneldil the Polka-dot · 11-01-2002, 05:53 PM

I don't think much in the end result would have changed had Morgoth gotten to Men before the Elves. When Feanor proposed to leave Valinor he was told (I forget by who....Manwe?) he could not defeat one of the Valar alone. Adding Men to Morgoth's side means little. The Powers would still have had to come to Middle Earth to set things right. However, I think a whole lot in between might have been different (re: the point about Earendil).

11-02-2002, 12:39 PM

The point that I was attempting to make was that had men not been allied with the Elves there would have been no Earendil to go to Valinor and obtain the help of the Valar and Morgoth would have remained in power. There also would have been no Beren to obtain the Silmaril, which Earendil used to get to Valinor. The outcome would have been drastically different had Morgoth corrupted men to his will.

Carannillion · 11-02-2002, 10:45 PM

Agreed, but remember also, that there is something more going on in the background.

Iluvatar clearly states that Men are his [direct] Children, and only he knows their future. Elves are closely related to the Valar - the Ainur - and the Music. Through this, even Melkor will see that he is merely a part in Iluvatar's grand scheme. Eä is destined to pass and go away, to a future we do not know.

10-31-2002, 03:48 AM	#1
Alatar_69 Pile O'Bones Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Rhûn, Tasmania Posts: 21	How would it all be? What would have happened had Morgoth corrupted the hearts of men like the house of Beor and men never made it to the Elves? Would the combined power of men and morgoth have been enough to destroy the elves or would the elves of old have united to defeat this new enemy or even would the mighty Valar have intervened? __________________ Blue Council Forever!

10-31-2002, 03:53 AM	#2
Pallando B.C Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Rhûn, Tasmania Posts: 521	Once again, a very debateable point Alatar. Men+Morgorth could have indeed take over the exiled elves but Tolkien's love for the Elves and hate for evil would have definately not let that happen, so in that case as you have said , The Valar of Vanyar would certianly intervend __________________ {JHart} Support The Aussies!

10-31-2002, 01:50 PM	#3
amyrlis Wight Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Helcaraxe Posts: 210	Hhmmm... I think that regardless of the loyalty of Man, the events of the First Age would have remained much the same with the Vanyar and Valar intervening and casting Morgoth into the Void. However, the events of the Third Age would have been quite different. If all the men had been corrupted, then I would imagine that, contrary to the theme in LOTR, the Age of Man would not have been approaching. The elves were waning in ME partly because of their weariness and partly because their time was coming to a close and the Age of Man was upon them. If there was to be no Age of Man, then I would think that more elves may have come from the west in search of kingdoms and adventure, as the Noldor did. So, elves would have continued to thrive. But, Sauron would have still been around, and the rings as well. In defeating Sauron and the Ring, the elves would have cast their own doom by diminishing the power of their own rings. So there lies a dilema, without Men in the picture, what would the elves have done about Sauron? Flee Middle Earth and leave it to him and his minions? Or defeat him, yet diminish their own powers enough that life in Middle Earth would no longer be desirable. That is if the Elf Kingdoms would have united against Sauron - we know how those Elf Kings can be. __________________ "Pull the blinders from my eyes, let me see these endless skies And drown here where I stand in the beauty of the land."

11-01-2002, 03:21 PM	#5
amyrlis Wight Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Helcaraxe Posts: 210	Good point Timloth, about Earendil! I had not thought of that. Now if there was no Tuor, would Maeglin have had his way with Idril? I shudder to think of the offspring from such a loathful relation. Without Earendil there would have been no intervention by the Valar, so it almost seems that Morgoth's victory would be eminent. Good point indeed! __________________ "Pull the blinders from my eyes, let me see these endless skies And drown here where I stand in the beauty of the land."

11-01-2002, 05:53 PM	#7
Keneldil the Polka-dot Wight Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Michigan Posts: 128	I don't think much in the end result would have changed had Morgoth gotten to Men before the Elves. When Feanor proposed to leave Valinor he was told (I forget by who....Manwe?) he could not defeat one of the Valar alone. Adding Men to Morgoth's side means little. The Powers would still have had to come to Middle Earth to set things right. However, I think a whole lot in between might have been different (re: the point about Earendil). __________________ "Trust in the ball Jake.....and throw yourself."

10-31-2002, 03:30 PM	#4
Timloth Guest Posts: n/a	I think that had Morgoth been successful in corrupting men of the three houses of the Edain that the first age would have turned out completely different. First, the men and Elves were utterly defeated by Morgoth anyway, and only through the intervention by the hosts of the Valar were they saved. Second, the intervention by the host of the Valar was a direct result of the voyage of Earendil the Blessed. Had men been corrupted by Morgoth, Earendil would never have been born, as his Father Tuor wouldn't have met his mother Idril in Gondolin. So based on that, had Morgoth been successful with his plan to corrupt men, things would have turned out far differently.

11-01-2002, 04:09 PM	#6
timloth Guest Posts: n/a	One could also ask without Tuor would Maeglin have betrayed Gondolin as he did? Eol wasn't right in the head, so to speak, and Maeglin was a little suspect, but I think that Idril's love for Tuor (and Turgon's for that matter) made him do what he did.

11-02-2002, 12:39 PM	#8
timloth Guest Posts: n/a	The point that I was attempting to make was that had men not been allied with the Elves there would have been no Earendil to go to Valinor and obtain the help of the Valar and Morgoth would have remained in power. There also would have been no Beren to obtain the Silmaril, which Earendil used to get to Valinor. The outcome would have been drastically different had Morgoth corrupted men to his will.

11-02-2002, 10:45 PM	#9
Carannillion Wight Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Mici Firya Posts: 135	Agreed, but remember also, that there is something more going on in the background. Iluvatar clearly states that Men are his [direct] Children, and only he knows their future. Elves are closely related to the Valar - the Ainur - and the Music. Through this, even Melkor will see that he is merely a part in Iluvatar's grand scheme. Eä is destined to pass and go away, to a future we do not know. __________________ A cry for the people, but there's noone there to hear...