Eagles: Heroes without Depth

[Rhudladion]

In short- The Eagles are always popping up in the nick of time, but JRRT told us so little about them. Why do you think he chose to have them be the "last cavalry"?...and why did he not tell us more about their race, like he did with other random characters such as the Beornings, Ents, Wild Men, Paths of the Dead folks, etc.?

Mister Underhill, I am sorry if I appeared impatient. I assure you I was practicing patience. Thank you guys for the help in restoring this thread.

[ February 07, 2002: Message edited by: Rhudladion ]

[Narya]

I think eagles do not fight for one extrem. They have a very neutral aligment.
they don´t like all humans. When they come at the end of a battle to help, they do it because they are befriended with Gandalf and because they don´t want Sauron to win and take over the world.

[Kuruharan]

Hmm..., I'm afraid that I don't remember exactly what it was I said before. I think that it was something to the effect of we don't know as much about the Eagles because the story is not about them. That they were never really the center of attention anywhere in any of the books.
At least I think that was about the gist of it. I had many rambling examples but I don't remember what they all were. Sorry.

[littlemanpoet]

I'll take another shot at the gist of my response, Rhud. I'm sorry the first attempt was lost. I thought it was pretty interesting. Lessee.....

I recall someone metioning that the Eagles were the servants of Manwe, and functioned as a sort of (gasp dare we say it) "Deus ex machina" in Tolkien's works. There was the Battle of Five Armies, the battle before the Teeth of Mordor, the very first rescue from the trees as they were burnt by the Goblins (and Wargs), and the rescuing of Gandalf once from Orthanc, and once from the top of Caradhras. Okay. Now that I got all that outlined clearly in my head, it turns out that they are NOT all battle-related. So I was wrong to say so. They DO all seem to be Gandalf-related, which I find interesting, and perhaps key. It is the friendship between Gwaihir Windlord and Gandalf that makes the thing work at all, and I tend to believe that JRRT did lace enough of that into his Tapestry to make it more than mere deus ex machina. I also mentioned in the previous (lost) thread that I considered the Eagles to be one race among the sentient free peoples, that they are not humanoid notwithstanding. Based on the Gwaihir/Gandalf friendship and the free peoples aspects of Eagles, I think there's enough there to say that they were not merely a "throw them in as the last salvation". I would put it that they were the air force, so to speak, of the Free Peoples. As such, they were the counter to the Nazgul, I suppose.

Another related aspect to the discussion, I recall, was that they were "redemptive", and I suggested that "salvific" was a better word.

I hope that helps to bring some or more of this discussion back.

[Thingol]

I always believed that Radagast was responsible for the eagles always being at the right place at the right time. I vaugely remember reading a line or two in one of the letters and possibly the UT where Tolkien was talking about Radagast and said that this might have been a possibility. It is certainly plausible that Radagast, being a Maiar who had special connections with beasts and birds, had a special connection with the eagles who were servants of Manwe. Plus I don't like the idea of a wizzard who Gandalf obviously trusted sitting around doing nothing for the entire War of the Ring.

[Nostie]

I remember reading that they were messengers/servants of Mandos...Maybe the Valar didn't entirely give up on the ppl in ME. They let them do whatever they want at first, but at the end love them too much to just watch them fail or die, so the send the eagles to help them?

[The Saucepan Man]

Plus I don't like the idea of a wizzard who Gandalf obviously trusted sitting around doing nothing for the entire War of the Ring.

[img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] I'd certainly agree with that. Radagast surely had to play some part in defeating Sauron, so why not the link between his friendship with Gandalf and his greater appreciation of the non-humanoid free peoples?

But, I always wondered why the Eagles didn't play a greater role in the struggle against Sauron. After all, didn't they have as much to lose as humans from Sauron's dominion over ME? Or, like the Elves, did they have somewhere else they could go?

[Eru]

But, I always wondered why the Eagles didn't play a greater role in the struggle against Sauron. After all, didn't they have as much to lose as humans from Sauron's dominion over ME? Or, like the Elves, did they have somewhere else they could go?

maybe the fact that they housed in unaccesible peaks had something to do with it. and other eagles had helped before. in the past. Throndor, King of the Eagles. always poping up in the sil when needed.

i believe it was Manwe who sent the eagles to help ALMOST every time.

[Galorme]

did they have somewhere else they could go?

How about the west where they came from (or theri decendants came from)? But I doubt that such noble creatures would be that selfish, just abandon the world when things got tough/

[Rimbaud]

Along with littlemanpoet's post above, I have always seen teh Eagles as Istar related, rather than purely battle-connected. They indeed do fall into a deus ex machina position within the books. I have reconciled this somewhat, by use of the first point. The Eagles would not come at the behest of just anybody, and perhaps not at the behest of anything lesser than one of the Ainur, here the Valar and their assistants. By this I mean, that I simply see them as an extension of Gandalf's powers, inherent as a Maia. I do not mean this to detract from their official place as Manwë's messengers and limousine service, but simply as a device for aligning their role with the characters familiar within the trilogy.

[Mattius]

I have just thought what are the eagles? Are they some weak form of Maiar as they can talk and therefore created by Eru or did Manwe create them??

[Tirinor]

It is suprising though, and perhaps a flaw, that such integral characters have zero character development. It would be like if Bombadil kept coming to the recue, but all other comments and parts of the story with Bombadil were cut out. Even the pukel men get treated with more detail, background, and intimacy.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

The Eagles were made by Eru and were sent to Manwe in the same way Ents were sent to Yavanna. There is a quite intresting commentary on whether Eagles were Maia in Morgoth's ring. I think Christephoer drew the conclusion that they weren't, though If I'm wrong, then say so.

[obloquy]

Tolkien contradicts himself as to the nature of the Eagles, but it seems that his final opinion was that they were mere beasts, 'raised to a higher level' by the Valar. I address the difficulty with a Maiarin origin for them here, in my favorite thread in the world.

[Tirinor]

but it seems that his final opinion was that they were mere beasts

Is it your contention that the reason Tolkien has not developed the eagle's characters or cultures is because they were mere beasts?

I might buy that.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Tolkien even said that Orcs were said to be bred from Maia and Beasts.That was when he was veering away from the Orcs=Mutilated Elves theory.

[obloquy]

I believe calling the Elven origin concept the 'mutilated Elves theory' is inaccurate. Orcs weren't just mutilated Elves in that construct, they were an entire race; bred from Elves and in mockery of them, but a race of their own nonetheless. Even though Elves may have been the original stock, I consider it unlikely that any true Elven blood flowed in the veins of Orcs, especially those of the later ages.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Obloquy- I was in a rush, and the 'mutitlated elves' title was the best title that I could come up with then. Thanks for correcting me, BTW. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[littlemanpoet]

Keep in mind fellow Downsers, the mythic wonder
Tolkien tried to evoke for our enjoyment.
The Eagles in their eyries, Manwe's messengers,
evoke an archetype; they are not meant
to be mundane as men, fraught with frailty;
they serve the Secret Fire and fly
at dimmest hour to the aid of the enemies of the dark.
We need them not to be merely mortal.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

So how long does it to make up those poems LMP? Are you a professional poet?

[littlemanpoet]

I've never gotten paid, although I'm getting two published this month (paid in two copies, if that counts).

That little ditty took about fifteen minutes. Anglo-Saxon alliterative verse.

Practice, practice, practice.

Back to the discussion...

[the guy who be short]

you said that the eagles wield the secret fire. when gandalf is shouting at the balrog, he says:

i wield the secret flame of arda

what is the secret flame? sorry for sidetracking, but please answer that 1.
as for the eagles, maybe they were just another race, like men and elves, free and completely normal. the lord of the rings was set along timeago. maybe since then, they became less sentieant and aware, and eventually became beasts?
again, what is the secret fire/flame?

[littlemanpoet]

Actually, I said that the serve the secret fire. That's my opinion; you see, they are servants of Manwe, who is directly answerable to Eru. I think the secret fire is Eru, or at least that power, or spirit, that goes out from Eru and flows into Middle Earth. Gandalf and the Eagles are, therefore, close allies, both serving the same Secret Fire; it is Gandalf that speaks most often of things meant to be in Middle Earth. "Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, Frodo, and you were meant to have it." I would conjecture that the Eagles are meant to rescue Frodo and Sam at the destruction of Mount Doom, and are meant to come to the aid of the Free Peoples' armies at the Battle of Five Armies and at the Battle before the Gates of Morannon.