Watcher In The Water - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Boffer · 07-06-2002, 10:30 AM

Hey everybody.
Is it possible the the Watcher In The Water is a maia enigma as Ungoliant? Anyone that has ANY information on The Watcher please respond.

burrahobbit · 07-06-2002, 11:58 AM

No, it isn't possible at all. Maia or enigma, can't be both. We know exactly what Maiar are, which precludes them from being enigmatic. Watcher = enigma.

*Varda* · 07-06-2002, 12:27 PM

<font color=white> Tolkien never went into any particular depth about the watcher in the water (as far as i know). Somehow, in my humble opinion I don't consider it to be a Maia, so that leaves the possibility - It's an enigma. Sometimes in Tolkien's works there are questions that just don't have answers and we just have to accept it - although i still enjoy debating over what Tom Bombadil really is.

~*Varda Elentari*~

akhtene · 07-06-2002, 05:16 PM

I somehow always thought that the Watcher was just some animal, one of the monsters created by Melcor (or Sauron). IMHO it's not intelligent enough to be a maya or anything like that. Just many arms / or legs and sheer physical strength.

A great-great...granddad of octopusses and squids.

Aldagrim Proudfoot · 07-07-2002, 12:47 PM

I agree with Ahktene. The Sil does say Melkor corruptedanimals to make monsters. The Watched might be a descendent of one of some monsters Melkor made as guards.

The Silver-shod Muse · 07-10-2002, 12:23 PM

Hehehe... Cute picture akhtene, and I agree with you.

In the movie (yes, I know there's no valid argument there) it looked like my idea of Poseidon with a lot of tentacles, definitely a little more intelligent and sentient than a big octopus (though squid are awfully smart... [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img])

Aldagrim Proudfoot · 07-10-2002, 02:25 PM

It seemed to know what it was doing in the book too.

akhtene · 07-10-2002, 02:46 PM

Muse, I'm glad you like the picture. Here's another one

And... well watch-dogs also seem to know what they are doing...

The Silver-shod Muse · 07-11-2002, 10:50 AM

Gross. That looks like something I coughed up when I had a respiratory infection. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] (Just kidding, maybe).

Gimli Son Of Gloin · 07-11-2002, 10:59 AM

A picture is worth a thousand words. I'm just not sure what this one says...

*Varda* · 07-11-2002, 11:03 AM

<font color=white> AAAGH! That scares me!!!! *runs into a corner*

~*Varda Elentari*~

Nice-Smeagol · 07-12-2002, 12:13 PM

It does say in FoR, that Gandalf "did not speak aloud his thought that whatever it was that dwelt in the lake, it had seized on Frodo first among all the Company"
Therefore I believe that the Watcher was some kind of servant of Sauron. Either that or it knew that Frodo was carrying the ring and wanted it for itself to put on it's tentacle.
Lord Watcher in the Water!
Could you imagine it, a massive war,
Sauron vs The Watcher In The Water

***The Barrow-Wight*** · 07-12-2002, 12:31 PM

If you remember from the book in the Chamber of Mazarbul, the Watcher was also responsible for the death of some of Balin's dwarves. It prevented them from leaving and thus was responsible, in a way, for their ultimate demise. Still, I doubt that the creature 'served' Sauron purposely, but it certainly served his purposes. I forget the exact text, but the hints of 'creatures' lying beneath the earth could definitely mean more than just Balrogs. The idea that the Watcher was a monster is most likely the closest to the truth.

flyingtable83 · 07-15-2002, 06:58 PM

Looking at it from a more literary view, it seemed to me that Tolkien meant for the watcher to be some ancient creature, not owning allegiance to any other. It did not seem as though the watcher's attraction to Frodo was to retrieve the ring for a master, but only to (as was said before in this thread)use it for its own purposes.
Also, from a very personal point of view, I almost feel as though the watcher was not entirely evil, but only evil toward the fellowship. I view the watcher as a third party, that would just as easily attack an orc as an elf.

07-15-2002, 07:17 PM

A few points:

1. The pool in which the Watcher resided was artificially created. Remember? The pool level was low -- that's why the Fellowship could get to the door at all.

2. Sauron's henchmen (hench-orcs?) dammed the pool in the first place.

3. How did the Watcher get into the pool? Did the orcs haul it up from some forsaken underground lake deep below Moria? It probably didn't crawl up there by itself -- or did it? By Sauron's command?

4. Where did the ugly critter come from?

I think if you can answer the question of the Watcher's nativity, you will answer the other questions regarding its allegiance to Sauron, etc. [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]

07-06-2002, 10:30 AM	#1
Boffer Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Student Posts: 18	Watcher In The Water Hey everybody. Is it possible the the Watcher In The Water is a maia enigma as Ungoliant? Anyone that has ANY information on The Watcher please respond.

07-06-2002, 11:58 AM	#2
burrahobbit Hidden Spirit Join Date: May 2000 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,424	No, it isn't possible at all. Maia or enigma, can't be both. We know exactly what Maiar are, which precludes them from being enigmatic. Watcher = enigma. __________________ What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?

07-06-2002, 12:27 PM	#3
Varda Maiden of Tears Join Date: May 2002 Location: Valinor. Posts: 571	<font color=white> Tolkien never went into any particular depth about the watcher in the water (as far as i know). Somehow, in my humble opinion I don't consider it to be a Maia, so that leaves the possibility - It's an enigma. Sometimes in Tolkien's works there are questions that just don't have answers and we just have to accept it - although i still enjoy debating over what Tom Bombadil really is. ~Varda Elentari~ __________________ 'It must often be so, Sam, when things are in danger: someone has to give them up, lose them, so that others may keep them' ~Frodo "Life is hard. After all, it kills you." - Katharine Hepburn

07-06-2002, 05:16 PM	#4
akhtene Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2002 Location: stronghold of the North Posts: 390	I somehow always thought that the Watcher was just some animal, one of the monsters created by Melcor (or Sauron). IMHO it's not intelligent enough to be a maya or anything like that. Just many arms / or legs and sheer physical strength. A great-great...granddad of octopusses and squids. __________________ Где найти мне сил, чтобы вернуться через века, Чтобы ты - простил?.. А трава разлуки высока...

07-07-2002, 12:47 PM	#5
Aldagrim Proudfoot Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hobbiton Posts: 328	I agree with Ahktene. The Sil does say Melkor corruptedanimals to make monsters. The Watched might be a descendent of one of some monsters Melkor made as guards. __________________ I do not suffer from insanity. I enjoy every minute of it!

07-10-2002, 12:23 PM	#6
The Silver-shod Muse Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: The shoulder of a poet, TX Posts: 388	Hehehe... Cute picture akhtene, and I agree with you. In the movie (yes, I know there's no valid argument there) it looked like my idea of Poseidon with a lot of tentacles, definitely a little more intelligent and sentient than a big octopus (though squid are awfully smart... [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]) __________________ "'You," he said, "tell her all. What good came to you? Do you rejoice that Maleldil became a man? Tell her of your joys, and of what profit you had when you made Maleldil and death acquainted.'" -Perelandra, by C.S. Lewis

07-10-2002, 02:25 PM	#7
Aldagrim Proudfoot Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hobbiton Posts: 328	It seemed to know what it was doing in the book too. __________________ I do not suffer from insanity. I enjoy every minute of it!

07-10-2002, 02:46 PM	#8
akhtene Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2002 Location: stronghold of the North Posts: 390	Muse, I'm glad you like the picture. Here's another one And... well watch-dogs also seem to know what they are doing... __________________ Где найти мне сил, чтобы вернуться через века, Чтобы ты - простил?.. А трава разлуки высока...

07-11-2002, 10:50 AM	#9
The Silver-shod Muse Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: The shoulder of a poet, TX Posts: 388	Gross. That looks like something I coughed up when I had a respiratory infection. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] (Just kidding, maybe). __________________ "'You," he said, "tell her all. What good came to you? Do you rejoice that Maleldil became a man? Tell her of your joys, and of what profit you had when you made Maleldil and death acquainted.'" -Perelandra, by C.S. Lewis

07-11-2002, 10:59 AM	#10
Gimli Son Of Gloin Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: The Halls of Montezuma, and the Shores of Tripoli Posts: 495	A picture is worth a thousand words. I'm just not sure what this one says... __________________ The Few, the Proud, the Marines.

07-11-2002, 11:03 AM	#11
Varda Maiden of Tears Join Date: May 2002 Location: Valinor. Posts: 571	<font color=white> AAAGH! That scares me!!!! runs into a corner ~Varda Elentari~ __________________ 'It must often be so, Sam, when things are in danger: someone has to give them up, lose them, so that others may keep them' ~Frodo "Life is hard. After all, it kills you." - Katharine Hepburn

07-12-2002, 12:13 PM	#12
Nice-Smeagol Animated Skeleton Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Somewhere under the Misty Mountains Posts: 48	It does say in FoR, that Gandalf "did not speak aloud his thought that whatever it was that dwelt in the lake, it had seized on Frodo first among all the Company" Therefore I believe that the Watcher was some kind of servant of Sauron. Either that or it knew that Frodo was carrying the ring and wanted it for itself to put on it's tentacle. Lord Watcher in the Water! Could you imagine it, a massive war, Sauron vs The Watcher In The Water __________________ Wicked Masster Cheatss Us!Cheatss Smeagol, gollum. He mussn't go that way, mussn't hurt Preciouss. Give it to Smeagol, yess, give it to uss. GIVE IT TO USSSSS.... I'm evil I know, but hey, who's gonna stop me! Bwahahahahahahaha!

07-12-2002, 12:31 PM	#13
*The Barrow-Wight* Night In Wight Satin Join Date: May 2000 Posts: 4,043	If you remember from the book in the Chamber of Mazarbul, the Watcher was also responsible for the death of some of Balin's dwarves. It prevented them from leaving and thus was responsible, in a way, for their ultimate demise. Still, I doubt that the creature 'served' Sauron purposely, but it certainly served his purposes. I forget the exact text, but the hints of 'creatures' lying beneath the earth could definitely mean more than just Balrogs. The idea that the Watcher was a monster is most likely the closest to the truth. __________________ The Barrow-Wight

07-15-2002, 06:58 PM	#14
flyingtable83 Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 11	Looking at it from a more literary view, it seemed to me that Tolkien meant for the watcher to be some ancient creature, not owning allegiance to any other. It did not seem as though the watcher's attraction to Frodo was to retrieve the ring for a master, but only to (as was said before in this thread)use it for its own purposes. Also, from a very personal point of view, I almost feel as though the watcher was not entirely evil, but only evil toward the fellowship. I view the watcher as a third party, that would just as easily attack an orc as an elf. __________________ "White!" he sneered. "It serves as a beginning. White cloth may be dyed. The white page can be overwritten; and the white light can be broken." - Saruman

07-15-2002, 07:17 PM	#15
archon Guest Posts: n/a	A few points: 1. The pool in which the Watcher resided was artificially created. Remember? The pool level was low -- that's why the Fellowship could get to the door at all. 2. Sauron's henchmen (hench-orcs?) dammed the pool in the first place. 3. How did the Watcher get into the pool? Did the orcs haul it up from some forsaken underground lake deep below Moria? It probably didn't crawl up there by itself -- or did it? By Sauron's command? 4. Where did the ugly critter come from? I think if you can answer the question of the Watcher's nativity, you will answer the other questions regarding its allegiance to Sauron, etc. [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]