Ponderings about the fates of the Noldor, Galadriel and what it all meant.

[Cazoz]

I was thinking before about the fate of the Noldor, specifically those who left the West to come to Middle Earth. This includes those who swore the Oath of Feanor and those who didn't. I recalled that of the immediate descendents of Finwe, (and here I am taking this to be two generations down, i.e. grandchildren) the only survivor was Galadriel of those who left Valinor. Finarfin remained in the West, and was King and presumably lived on until the end of the tales. There is nothing to suggest otherwise.

Although Galadriel did not take the Oath, she was one of the high-profile Elves who left Valinor, and many other Noldor who did not directly take the Oath (as opposed to just following it). And, speculation about Maglor aside, was the only one of her cousins to survive well into the SA. This strikes me as a strange coincidence; the Sons of Feanor I can understand dying as it pretty much came part and parcel with the Oath and was the end product of sticking to said Oath. But Fingolfin's children were all valiant and great, pretty much!

I don't think they were overly pro-Feanor, beyond wanting to get on for the sake of good blood, so I don't think the negative outcomes of the Oath would have affected them in the slightest. And yet they all died tragically. Fingon rescued Maedhros from the mountain-side (personally, one of my favourite deeds from the Sil) and yet was killed by Gothmog. Turgon founded the great city of Gondolin, another great deed done for the Elves, and he was killed defending it. And their sister, poor Aredhel, was killed (by accident, I concede) by her husband when trying to escape him and his nutty ways. All three died sadly, and I would say that of the three sons of Finwe, it was Fingolfin's children who were possibly the most noble, kind and selfless.

"What is the point of this Sil recap?!” I hear you cry! It is my query about the fate of the high Noldor. Why was Galadriel the only documented survivor out of the ones mentioned? Why did all the other children of Finarfin and all those of Fingolfin die in the FA, and under sad circumstances too? Was this a device by Tolkien to have Galadriel become the greatest surviving Elf in ME at the end of the TA, and thus eventually the most 'senior ranking' (if you will) Noldor, excepting her father Finarfin?

She wasn't the only female, as Aredhel was also a granddaughter of Finwe. She wasn't the only one to procreate and thus give to the world great Elves; Turgon had Gil-Galad and even poor Curufin was survived by Celebrimbor (note that both were slain, furthermore, albeit much later on). Both of these children quite obviously did more for ME, Elfkind and were more notorious than Celebrian, who was little more than a mother and became nothing more than useless orc-fodder and eventually had to high-tail it back West.

Is there much specifically in the Sil (my copy is in London, I'm in Melbourne!) about the fate of the exiled Noldor, relating to those who didn't take the Oath and merely crossed over at the same time as Feanor? (I am aware of the varying accounts, and that of Galadriel and Celeborn leaving Valinor together, unrelated to Feanor's exodus.) And if so, what did Galadriel do to escape this that her brothers and non-Feanorian cousins didn't? Perhaps it is all coincidence that she was the only survivor from her line (again, I am aware of Maglor!) and that through Celebrian and Arwen, only her biological legacy truly lived on into the FA, the only fully documented line to run through the whole story. Was she the link and backbone to it all? The true connection between the old and new worlds, ensuring that with the line of Telcontar, some of her would always be present in the rulers of ME, no matter how diluted.

Did Tolkien actively keep Galadriel as the living, surviving link throughout time; someone who had seen the Trees and lived in Valinor and someone who was also one with ME (or at least Lorien), someone who had lived through the times of Beleriand and Numenor, someone who had lived to tell the tale and would be able to tell it all?

Quite obviously the Sil is based around Morgoth and Feanor and the LoTR is mainly about Sauron, Gandalf, Aragorn and Frodo. And whilst Morgoth, Sauron, Olorin and many others are present and crucial throughout the Legendarium, considering her ubiquitous role/presence/relevance; it really makes me wonder how important a role Tolkien actually had envisaged for Galadriel; did she just coincidentally tie in really well or was she conscientiously intended to be such a vital link? And am I overanalysing this, or was she knowingly written so, by the man himself?

Sorry for the length, anything to procrastinate at work! I effectively just got paid to write that, hehe!

[Sophia the Thunder Mistress]

Turgon had Gil-Galad

Gil-Galad's father according to Silm was Fingon.

Perhaps it is all coincidence that she was the only survivor from her line (again, I am aware of Maglor!) and that through Celebrian and Arwen, only her biological legacy truly lived on into the FA, the only fully documented line to run through the whole story.

No, the line of Turgon (and thus Fingolfin) continued into the fourth age as well. Turgon's daughter was Idril. Her son was Earendil, the father of Elrond. So the line of Telcontar merged the lines of Fingolfin and Finarfin.

I don't have my copy of the Letters on me at the moment, but I know Tolkien did mention that in his mythology Galadriel was associated with the Virgin Mary. Because of this he needed to keep her actions pure, so she could be a figure of respect and almost veneration for men. Thus, she stayed out of the great events of the first age (mostly) and out of harm's way. The later varied accounts of her crossing to Middle-Earth are reworked in order to make her fit better with this conception. I would say this has a lot to do with her survival, seeing how if you aren't involved in wars and such, you have much less chance of getting killed.

And on an opinion note:

All three died sadly, and I would say that of the three sons of Finwe, it was Fingolfin's children who were possibly the most noble, kind and selfless.

I would without hesitation have said that Finarfin's son Finrod Felagund was the most noble, kind and selfless of the descendants of Finwe. His actions toward the people of Beor which earned him the name Nom "wisdom", his aid to Beren in which he knew he'd lose his life and yet continued, both are factors in his favor in this contest. One of his titles was even "Friend of Men". Just my two cents on the matter.

Very interesting thoughts. Pardon for the disorganization of mine, it's little late for me.

Sophia

[Tinuviel Took]

And yet they all died tragically. Fingon rescued Maedhros from the mountain-side (personally, one of my favourite deeds from the Sil) and yet was killed by Gothmog. Turgon founded the great city of Gondolin, another great deed done for the Elves, and he was killed defending it. And their sister, poor Aredhel, was killed (by accident, I concede) by her husband when trying to escape him and his nutty ways. All three died sadly, and I would say that of the three sons of Finwe, it was Fingolfin's children who were possibly the most noble, kind and selfless.

I have always seen the oath of Feanor as such a tragic thing, harming those who swore it and the inocent as well. Even the Silmarils themselves have always seemed more dangerous than many more evil a thing, tainted, barely perceptable ilwill to all who seek it. Think of all it did to Thingel, not even one of the Noldor, that he would risk his own daughter's life (fairest and purest of all in middle earth) to get a simple gem. I had more to say but I've got to leave now.

[Kuruharan]

I think that Sophia has hit part of the nail on the head.

would say this has a lot to do with her survival, seeing how if you aren't involved in wars and such, you have much less chance of getting killed.

For all of the male members of the House of Finwe, their deathless state, combined with the fact that in Middle Earth they lived by the sword, virtually ensured that if they stayed in Middle Earth the sword would get them eventually. And except for Maglor and Maedhros (who chucked himself into a chasm) they all did so.

This at least is a very practical way of looking at things.

And I believe that the Quest of the Silmarils and the desire to rule their own kingdoms tainted all those who went to Middle Earth; the Doom of Mandos, and so forth, that was placed on all the Exiles.

...On the House of Feanor the wrath of the Valar lieth from the West to the uttermost East, and upon all who will follow them it shall be laid also.

It is a trifle wholesale.

my copy is in London, I'm in Melbourne...anything to procrastinate at work! I effectively just got paid to write that, hehe

What do you do for a living?

[ May 20, 2003: Message edited by: Kuruharan ]

[Mithadan]

From the author's perspective, Galadriel was a late addition to the "stable" of Finwe's line. She was added in while LoTR was being written. Once the decision was made to have her be the daughter of Finarfin, she obviously had to survive the First Age.

Tolkien grappled with this issue in various versions. One has Galadriel meeting Celeborn in Valinor and the two of them planning to take ship to the East when the rebellion occurred. Another has her fighting on the side of the Teleri in Alqualonde. In either construction, her rebellion is less "serious" than the transgressions of her kin.

There are also multiple versions of what happened to her in Beleriand. One has Galadriel and Celeborn departing into the East early in the First Age under the belief that the war against Morgoth was futile. This is consistent with FoTR in which she says that she and Celeborn departed from Beleriand before the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin.

The second has her residing in Doriath until its fall, after which she presumably passes into the East with her husband. The version discussed earlier has her departing before the defeat of the Noldor, explaining her survival. The latter does not explain her survival other than that she was not slain.

Though she lived, she was not free from misfortune. Her brothers, uncles, aunts and cousins all died in Beleriand. If she dwelt in Eregion as some versions say, that realm perished as well and the Mirdain may have rebelled against her. In any case, she fought the "long defeat" and stayed while her people diminished. If Amroth was her son as some versions suggest, he died as well and her daughter was imprisoned and tortured by Orcs. She had her share of sadness.

In addition, she may have been barred from the West as a result of her participation in the rebellion, though this is also subject to interpretation. Either way, she was meant to stay in Middle Earth by exile or choice. To some extent, her roles were fated and she was meant to survive in sorrow as all around her fell or diminished.

[Manardariel]

Galadriel survived for three reasons. The first one is her probable (at least partial) innocence at the kin-slaying. The Doom of Mandos to my understanding only applied for those that were directly involved, which would mean that from that point on Fingolfin and Finarfin´s sons also also doomed. Finarfin himself didn´t fight in Alqualonde, which explains why he was pardoned by the Valar. In both version Mithadan suggests, Galadriel is -more or less- inocennt, so the doom of Mandos didn´t count for her. She was less doomed to suffer than herbrothers, who were killed in the Was of the Jewels.

Another reason is that Tolkien wanted to point out the Wars of the Jewels weren´t totally hopeless. Not everybody died, in fact a princess of the Noldor who was involved in the rebellion didn´t. This is a powerful sign, for it suggest hope as well as the forgiving of the Valar. Galadriel
was involved in the rebellion, but she never let blood touch her hands (as far as we know). The Valar and Eru let her live to show that they weren´t totally unforgiving, and tha the War of the Jewels wasn´t totally futile.

Galadriel also functioned as a reminder of the Eldar´s past in Third- Aged ME. In a time when only few people, even elves, remembered what had happened some milenia before their birth, someone who actually had seen it all was a powerful reminder. Galadriel´s memories were essential to her when she agreed to carry Nenya. Remeber that Gandalf was a Maia and Elrond the heir of two half- elves and some great lineages. Galadriel was one of the oldeast Eldar in ME and her powerfull memories helped her carry the burden of a Ring of Power.

In Galadriel´s past we find memories, pardoning, innocence and determination all combined into a strong female character that was able and strong enough to live through three ages of ME.

[The Saucepan Man]

From the author's perspective, Galadriel was a late addition to the "stable" of Finwe's line. She was added in while LoTR was being written. Once the decision was made to have her be the daughter of Finarfin, she obviously had to survive the First Age.

Similarly, being a late addition, there was less opportunity to involve her in the storyline of the Silmarillion, thus increasing her chances of survival. After all, if she's not in a story, she unlikely to be killed in it. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

When I recently read the Silmarillion for the first time, I was struck by how small a part she plays in it.

[Sophia the Thunder Mistress]

In any case, she fought the "long defeat" and stayed while her people diminished.

This is a major theme in Tolkien's thought and an important element in the Northern Mythologies that inspired him. We see relatively little of it in Middle-Earth, however. Galadriel is an important reminder of this theme. (Although, Gandalf suggests Middle-Earth itself, is really fighting the long defeat.) He deals with it in "The Monsters and the Critics" as well. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] It's always been one of my favorite parts of his writings.

Sophia

[Cazoz]

Gil-Galad's father according to Silm was Fingon.

and

No, the line of Turgon (and thus Fingolfin) continued into the fourth age as well. Turgon's daughter was Idril. Her son was Earendil, the father of Elrond. So the line of Telcontar merged the lines of Fingolfin and Finarfin.

Bugger, I know! I knew I'd make a mistake or two, trying to think about three ages worth of stuff. Forgive me.

I had read a few comments in various threads about Galadriel as a parallel for the Virgin Mary. Obviously it wasn't too literal; her not being a virgin and all! But her untainted moral lifestyle and simply the symbolism of the 'white' ,the 'mother' and the link to the West (loosely heaven) can compound this, I believe.

Not everybody died, in fact a princess of the Noldor who was involved in the rebellion didn´t. This is a powerful sign, for it suggest hope as well as the forgiving of the Valar. Galadriel
was involved in the rebellion, but she never let blood touch her hands (as far as we know). The Valar and Eru let her live to show that they weren´t totally unforgiving, and tha the War of the Jewels wasn´t totally futile.

This is interesting Manardariel. You use the words 'Let her live', and I an unclear about to what extent you are emphasising the 'let' part. Do you consider Galadriel's survival to be a gift granted from the Powers, as opposed to something that came naturally? Thus, do you see her as being almost proactively kept alive after all the deeds, them having judged her merits? Would you say they actively considered Galadriel and contemplated her individual actions and involvements?

This makes me think about how detailed the counsels of the Valar were, beyond those that we know about. I wonder how 'micro' a scale Eru and the Valar examined and followed each Elf, and Men and Hobbits furthermore, throughout history. It's interesting to consider; for instance were they aware of (and did they deem important) the deeds of the (arguably) secondary characters in the War of the Ring, such as Merry, Pippin, Faramir, Eomer and so on? How concerned were they with the affairs of mortals in general, with the exception of those whose deeds would have great impacts upon the future, such as Frodo and Aragorn? How intricate would their interest have been, or would they have primarily only been concerned about the end, and not the trivialities of the means?

What do you do for a living?

I'm actually spending a year travelling, having graduated from uni last May. I'm currently working as an editor for *insert high-profile book publishers* in Melbourne, but moving on soon up the centre of Australia. The 'being paid for this' comment was purely metaphorical; I meant spending time on the BD whilst I should be working! I'm not actually being paid to post on the BD, that'd be an awesome job though!

[GlingleglingleglingleFairy]

Simply, after pride comes a fall.

[drigel]

Cazoz what a great thread! This is exactly the reason I have spent many countless hours wasting valuable work time on this site hehe
well a 10 meg connection sure beats my dial up at home ...

I agree with all of Mandarials points as well. She is the beautifull, mysterious connection to the glorious and tragic past of ME.

All i would add is that this thread should be forwarded to PJ for the "perfect" theme of a possible script for the Silm. Since he is probably doing The Hobbit, which we all know is going to make New Line a bucket of money, Silm would be the next natural step (and the most challenging to put on the screen admittedly). You can argue Kate Blanchette as the right choice all you want, but I for one can hear her narration throughout the movie as the underlying thread that moves through the story. Not as active as she was in TLOTR, but the only surviving "player" from the 1st age.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Gil-Galad is the son of Orodreth, BTW.

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

I wonder how 'micro' a scale Eru and the Valar examined and followed each Elf, and Men and Hobbits furthermore, throughout history. It's interesting to consider; for instance were they aware of (and did they deem important) the deeds of the (arguably) secondary characters in the War of the Ring, such as Merry, Pippin, Faramir, Eomer and so on?

For me it is clear that Eru, and the Valar to some extent, are aware of the acts of every single elf, dwarf, man, ent, hobbit ...
As it is explained in the Osanwe Quenta, any knowledge of the future that an incarnate has got, must have been communicated to him by Eru (either directly or through the Valar). Therefore, the dream of Faramir (and Boromir) in which he is told to go to Rivendell, is actually a message from Eru / the Valar, who wanted him to go to Rivendel and help Frodo in his mission.

Having said this, and going back to the central topic of this thread, I think that the main reason for Galadriel to survive until the Third Age is that she still had to play a major role in the destruction of the One Ring [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Her mision in Middle Earth is not fulfilled until the One Ring and consequently Sauron are destroyed, and it is only at that very moment that she can finally depart from Middle Earth (not dying, but leaving Middle Earth).

[Kuruharan]

Gil-Galad's father according to Silm was Fingon.
--------
Gil-Galad is the son of Orodreth, BTW.

Let's say that he was of dubious parentage.

[drigel]

Amaril, I would go further and add that on Galadriels passing the "test" by refusing the ring was for her (personally) the "mission" of her final role in ME. She wouldnt have any idea of what Eru had planned for her as far as missions go.

[Lalaith]

If there's one thing more dubious and inconsistent than Gil-Galad's parentage, it's Galadriel's role in the Noldor rebellion. I believe a very late version had her having sought seperate permission from the Valar to go back to Middle Earth, thereby acquitting her of all Feanor-type guilt...
I didn't know that Galadriel herself was a late addition to the tale, that's interesting.
The way I always interpreted Galadriel's words about 'passing the test' was that she hadn't realised it *was* a test until that moment. I also think that she hadn't acknowledged a desire to return to Valinor until that moment, either.

[Sophia the Thunder Mistress]

Gil-Galad's father according to Silm was Fingon.

Gil-Galad is the son of Orodreth, BTW.

Let's say that he was of dubious parentage.

Eh, yes, I have no desire to plunge into that particular quicksand. I had thought Cazoz was working from the published Silmarillion (as this conception of Galadriel indicates).

Sophia

[Cazoz]

Yes, but actually I never knew there was doubt about his parentage! Busy mother eh? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

I also think that she hadn't acknowledged a desire to return to Valinor until that moment, either.

I have always thought this Lalaith, glad to see someone else with the same view. I always presumed that whilst she always knew she would return to Valinor, it was always a distant, vague time in the future and after a life of more than 7000 years, who can blame the ambiguity? And whilst she knew it was an inevitability, she was happy and settled in Lorien, and would be reluctant to leave it without due cause. The Elves were diminishing and I think her decision regarding her time to return West lay with the outcome of Gandalf's mission, almost to the extent of always having intended to return with him, if the outcome was as desired.
But until Frodo offered her the Ring, I don't believe she had quite realised the magnitude of the Ring's power (having never come in contact with it) and also realised the decreasing importance of the Elves. She evidently knew the Elder Days were ending, but I think at precise moment was her rather rueful acceptance of this fact, and that she was coming up to the home stretch, as it were.

I also believe that Frodo had a humbling effect on Galadriel. Her being vulnerable to the Ring as much as anybody, for example, may have been an awakening for her, in regards to the urgency of the situation and the absolute power of the Ring. Sure, she already knew but she hadn't experienced it first-hand, as yet. Like anything else, it became more real as she could see/feel/touch it, and I think this was humbling because perhaps, being Lady of the Wood and revered and feared all over Middle Earth, she now finally realised her time in Lorien (and ME) was over, and that she would have to return to Valinor, where she wouldn't have been so extraordinary. Okay, so maybe not the last bit but I'm rather amused by the idea of her being bitter and twisted at having to go back to live amongst Ainur and other High Elves when previously she was ruling the roost!

[Iarhen]

Thats something that Ive always thought of. After so many years of importance in M.E., what could possibly make Galadriel choose to go to Valinor?

I was amused by the wisdom of the above posts... Specially the part that the memories Galadriel had of her past were helpful for her to resist Nenya...

I have 2 questions about that:

1. Did Galadriel went again to Aman? Or was she made to stay in Tol Eressa?

2. Why did she have to resist Nenya? Wasnt it supossed that the 3 rings were not sullied by Sauron, and that their effect was to ward off the decay of time (specially from their bearers)? We can understand that after Nenyas power is diminished, the weight of the world, and specially all that happened recently in the last years of the Third Age, caught up with her and she had to go to Valinor to be able to resist it (even abandoning her husband and her grandchildren)... But why did she need her memories to resist Nenya?

[Finwe]

I think that Galadriel was able to go to Aman because she had done her "penance" by refusing the lure of the One Ring. I think the Valar were mainly testing her to see if she had merely escaped the main bloodshed in the First Age by chance, or by choice. If it had been by chance, then she wouldn't have refused the One Ring, being proud and mighty like most of Finwë's line. If she had escaped the bloodshed by choice, then she would refuse the One Ring, because she had been making conscious decisions to not involve herself in the same bloodshed that killed her kin. It was a test to see if she truly was "pure" enough to go to Aman.

Nenya, being the Ring of Water, increased the Sea-longing in Galadriel when she bore it. In the Unfinished Tales, it is said that once, the Sea-longing became so great in her, that she "moved" to Belfalas, and lived there for a while. Even though that seems to be a one-time thing, I think that Sea-longing remained in her. The only things that kept her in Middle-earth were: 1) She knew that she had to pass her "test," and until Frodo came to Lothlorien, she knew that her test hadn't come; and 2) She needed to remain and defend Lothlorien until the Enemy was finally vanquished. Her desire for the Sea was overcome by her sense of duty toward the people of Middle-earth, and that is why she stayed as long as she did, and why she left when she did. At the end of the Third Age, Sauron was vanquished, Aragorn made King, and peace brought to most of Middle-earth. Galadriel knew that she (and the Elves) were not needed any more, and that the Dominion of Men were coming. She knew that the Elven kingdoms/territories would interfere with the Dominion of Men, and thus, she left (along with Elrond, the leader of the other main Elven community).