hold on to those rings - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

the phantom · 10-24-2002, 01:16 PM

(I did a quick search for this topic and didn't find anything, but if I missed something, please point me to it.)

When the Nazgul were out running around they had their rings on, right? Well, at the fords when the river swept them away, basically destroying their temporary physical forms, how did they mangage to not lose their rings in that huge flood?! When their spirits float around, they can't carry their rings with them, can they? Doesn't a ring require a somewhat physical finger to go on?
Anyway, just wondering if someone would be kind enough to explain this to me.

lathspell · 10-24-2002, 01:24 PM

Did they have their Rings on?... I don't think so, I guess Sauron had them in his keeping and that therefore they were enslaved to him. In that way the Nine would not be lost at the time of Fords, cause they were in Barad-dur.

I always thought it would be like this

greetings,
lathspell

the phantom · 10-24-2002, 01:37 PM

Greetings to you as well, and thanks for the reply.
I also thought of this as a possibility, but was unsure if the long life and powers of the ringwraiths could be sustained without their rings on, or at least close by. Bilbo for instance had age start catching up to him after he gave up the one ring. Then again, maybe Sauron engineered the nine so that those that they enslaved could be sustained as long as the rings themselves exhisted. I dunno.

Arwen Imladris · 10-24-2002, 01:38 PM

Maybe the rings were part of them, part of their spirit. When Bilbo or Frodo put on the ring, the ring disapeared with them. It could be assumed that whatever they were waring disapeared with them. Just a thought.

Birdland · 10-24-2002, 02:27 PM

But Bilbo gave up the Ring voluntarily, whereas the Wraiths never gave up their Rings. I suppose Sauron could have held their rings as a way to control them.

Or maybe the Ring Wraiths wore Wraith Rings.

Beren87 · 10-24-2002, 03:07 PM

It does not say that the ringwraiths temporary bodies were destroyed, only that their horses must have perished. And I qoute:

Quote:

Their horses must have perished, and without them they are crippled. But the Ringwriaths themselves cannot be so easily destroyed.

Eldar14 · 10-24-2002, 03:32 PM

I do believe the more important word of 'magic ring' is 'magic' not 'ring.' It is not the little band of metal attached to a finger that does anything, it's the magic placed in the ring wrapping itself around the sould of the wearer. I think it would be impossible to remove the rings from the ringwraiths, because they are a part of the ringwraiths. Even cutting off their hand would not work as it did for Sauron I believe. These rings were created for enslavement, in which case they would permanently bond to the person they capture.

Westerly Wizard · 10-24-2002, 03:42 PM

There is quite a bit of evidence to show the Nine Rings were held by Sauron, not worn by the Nazgul.

in the Unfinished Tales, Tolkien writes "They [the naz-gul] were by far the most powerful of his servants, and the most suitable for such a mission, since they were entirely enslaved to the Nine Rings, which he now himself held" (The Hunt for the Ring")

Also, in Letter # 246 Tolkien wrote: "Sauron, who still through their nine rings (which he held) had primary control."

Galadriel also says* to Frodo: "You saw the Eye of him that holds the seven and the Nine." (FOTR - The Mirror of Galadriel) confirming Sauron's direct possession of the nine.

"Gandalf enters Dol Guldur, and discovers that its master is indeed Sauron, who is gathering all the Rings*and seeking for news of the One, and Isildur’s heir." (appendix B).

Furthermore, Frodo gives a thorough description of the appearence of the nazgul in "A Knife in the Dark" but no mention of a ring.

The only dissenting argument is tha Gandalf says at the Council of Elrond: "The Nine the Nazgul keep." But this is one item among several that go against it.

Eldar14 · 10-24-2002, 03:49 PM

I think it does mean 'held' in a literal sense of having the rings in his actual physical possession, but more of still knowing the whereabouts and having power over. He didn't know where many of the dwarven rings were, so he did not 'hold' them, and he no longer had power over the elven rings, so he did not 'hold' them. However, he still had power over the nine rings given to kings of men, and so he 'held' them.

elfling · 10-24-2002, 07:56 PM

I'm not sure if I beleive that "holding the rings" or the exact wording is always litteral. Sauron may have held the rings with his power therefore having power over the wearers. The Nine have very long been enslaved so they may still where the rings and I'm sure that at this point the rings wouldn't fall off unless Sauron wanted them to.

Galorme · 10-25-2002, 10:20 AM

In the HoME (6,7 or 8) it says that "The Nazgul are abroad, and they yet again cary the rings that corrupted them" or something similar. Its old i know, but it implies sauron holds them except in times of need.

busybee · 10-25-2002, 12:40 PM

The idea of Sauron holding the Rings to enslave the Nazgul is good one, but, maybe the Rings weren't washed of their fingers unless the Nazgul were willing to let go of the power they had from them...as it is ofen said "Men are weak and corrupted by power"...i think.
Or maybe the Nazgul and the Rings are one being & from the time they commited themselves to Sauron the Nazgul have become more and more into one form and they can't be separated unless Sauron says, or unless they want to be separated from their rings.

----------------------------
Don't wish upon a star it never comes true (a cinics point of view)

[ October 25, 2002: Message edited by: busybee ]

10-24-2002, 01:16 PM	#1
the phantom Beloved Shadow Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: The Stadium Posts: 5,971	hold on to those rings (I did a quick search for this topic and didn't find anything, but if I missed something, please point me to it.) When the Nazgul were out running around they had their rings on, right? Well, at the fords when the river swept them away, basically destroying their temporary physical forms, how did they mangage to not lose their rings in that huge flood?! When their spirits float around, they can't carry their rings with them, can they? Doesn't a ring require a somewhat physical finger to go on? Anyway, just wondering if someone would be kind enough to explain this to me. __________________ the phantom has posted. This thread is now important.

10-24-2002, 01:24 PM	#2
lathspell Regenerating Ringkeeper Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Holland Posts: 757	Did they have their Rings on?... I don't think so, I guess Sauron had them in his keeping and that therefore they were enslaved to him. In that way the Nine would not be lost at the time of Fords, cause they were in Barad-dur. I always thought it would be like this greetings, lathspell __________________ 'You?' cried Frodo. 'Yes, I, Gandalf the Grey,' said the wizard solemnly. 'There are many powers in the world, for good or for evil. Some are greater than I am. Against some I have not yet been measured. But my time is coming.'

10-24-2002, 01:37 PM	#3
the phantom Beloved Shadow Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: The Stadium Posts: 5,971	Greetings to you as well, and thanks for the reply. I also thought of this as a possibility, but was unsure if the long life and powers of the ringwraiths could be sustained without their rings on, or at least close by. Bilbo for instance had age start catching up to him after he gave up the one ring. Then again, maybe Sauron engineered the nine so that those that they enslaved could be sustained as long as the rings themselves exhisted. I dunno. __________________ the phantom has posted. This thread is now important.

10-24-2002, 01:38 PM	#4
Arwen Imladris Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: In a box with a fox Posts: 1,347	Maybe the rings were part of them, part of their spirit. When Bilbo or Frodo put on the ring, the ring disapeared with them. It could be assumed that whatever they were waring disapeared with them. Just a thought. __________________ "Wake up! Wake up! Wake up, sleepies, we must go, yes, we must go at once."

10-24-2002, 03:32 PM	#7
Eldar14 Wight Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: the Cottage of Lost Play Posts: 182	I do believe the more important word of 'magic ring' is 'magic' not 'ring.' It is not the little band of metal attached to a finger that does anything, it's the magic placed in the ring wrapping itself around the sould of the wearer. I think it would be impossible to remove the rings from the ringwraiths, because they are a part of the ringwraiths. Even cutting off their hand would not work as it did for Sauron I believe. These rings were created for enslavement, in which case they would permanently bond to the person they capture. __________________ "Come away! Let the cowards keep this city!" -- Fëanor to the Noldor

10-24-2002, 02:27 PM	#5
Birdland Ghastly Neekerbreeker Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto Posts: 1,751	But Bilbo gave up the Ring voluntarily, whereas the Wraiths never gave up their Rings. I suppose Sauron could have held their rings as a way to control them. Or maybe the Ring Wraiths wore Wraith Rings.

10-24-2002, 03:42 PM	#8
Westerly Wizard Haunting Spirit Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 72	There is quite a bit of evidence to show the Nine Rings were held by Sauron, not worn by the Nazgul. in the Unfinished Tales, Tolkien writes "They [the naz-gul] were by far the most powerful of his servants, and the most suitable for such a mission, since they were entirely enslaved to the Nine Rings, which he now himself held" (The Hunt for the Ring") Also, in Letter # 246 Tolkien wrote: "Sauron, who still through their nine rings (which he held) had primary control." Galadriel also says* to Frodo: "You saw the Eye of him that holds the seven and the Nine." (FOTR - The Mirror of Galadriel) confirming Sauron's direct possession of the nine. "Gandalf enters Dol Guldur, and discovers that its master is indeed Sauron, who is gathering all the Rings*and seeking for news of the One, and Isildur’s heir." (appendix B). Furthermore, Frodo gives a thorough description of the appearence of the nazgul in "A Knife in the Dark" but no mention of a ring. The only dissenting argument is tha Gandalf says at the Council of Elrond: "The Nine the Nazgul keep." But this is one item among several that go against it. __________________ "He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure."

10-24-2002, 03:49 PM	#9
Eldar14 Wight Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: the Cottage of Lost Play Posts: 182	I think it does mean 'held' in a literal sense of having the rings in his actual physical possession, but more of still knowing the whereabouts and having power over. He didn't know where many of the dwarven rings were, so he did not 'hold' them, and he no longer had power over the elven rings, so he did not 'hold' them. However, he still had power over the nine rings given to kings of men, and so he 'held' them. __________________ "Come away! Let the cowards keep this city!" -- Fëanor to the Noldor

10-24-2002, 07:56 PM	#10
elfling Haunting Spirit Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: asheville,nc Posts: 86	I'm not sure if I beleive that "holding the rings" or the exact wording is always litteral. Sauron may have held the rings with his power therefore having power over the wearers. The Nine have very long been enslaved so they may still where the rings and I'm sure that at this point the rings wouldn't fall off unless Sauron wanted them to. __________________ And I shall not be dark, but beautiful and terrible as the morning and the night...All shall love me and despair!

10-25-2002, 10:20 AM	#11
Galorme Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: London Posts: 337	In the HoME (6,7 or 8) it says that "The Nazgul are abroad, and they yet again cary the rings that corrupted them" or something similar. Its old i know, but it implies sauron holds them except in times of need. __________________ Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! The day has come! Behold people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!

10-25-2002, 12:40 PM	#12
busybee Haunting Spirit Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Mirkwood, Lothlorien...dream...actually the middle of nowhere...Mumbai Posts: 89	The idea of Sauron holding the Rings to enslave the Nazgul is good one, but, maybe the Rings weren't washed of their fingers unless the Nazgul were willing to let go of the power they had from them...as it is ofen said "Men are weak and corrupted by power"...i think. Or maybe the Nazgul and the Rings are one being & from the time they commited themselves to Sauron the Nazgul have become more and more into one form and they can't be separated unless Sauron says, or unless they want to be separated from their rings. ---------------------------- Don't wish upon a star it never comes true (a cinics point of view) [ October 25, 2002: Message edited by: busybee ] __________________ Pleeze does anyone know of a magical doorway or something to Middle Earth!?!?