How history repeats itself - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

ColletteTook · 10-22-2002, 07:05 PM

An interesting topic I percieved this would make.
Has anyone realized that if you look back into the history of Middle Earth, there seems to be a bit of a repetetive line?

EXAMPLES: There are many famous tales of love like that of Aragorn and Arwen such as Beren and Luthien Tinuviel, (as well: I should like to know, did Tinuviel give her immortality for him? I couldnt find that anywhere)
Also, one major event I noticed: The similarity between Melkor and Sauron. There seems to me to be an uncanny resemblance to the way that Melkor gained power, failed and then returned a second time, more powerful than ever and failed once mroe in a pattern very much like Sauron's.

Is there anyone that shares this opinion? Or have I been terribly mistaken and there is no connection of the sort?

Eldar14 · 10-22-2002, 07:18 PM

What I've always found interesting is how that even though the stories of Melkor and Sauron are very similar, they occured on such vastly different scales. That seems to be one of the other aspects of the repetitives of ME history. How the scale and grandeur of things seems to decrease as time goes on. How the heroes go from high and noble elves to simple hobbits.

ColletteTook · 10-22-2002, 07:33 PM

Your right!

I think for the hobbits, Tolkien was trying to reflect the size of the ring to the size of the heroes.
There was the ring, if you took one glance at it you would never be able to marvel at the fact that it was a powerful and dangerous menace to all things good(I personally would probably think it to be a "lovely souvenier(sp?)" in a way bilbo once had);
The same with the hobbits. A loving folk that keep to themselves, you would never think, looking at Samwise Gamgee or Frodo Baggins and see them as the saviours of Middle Earth.

Eldar14 · 10-22-2002, 07:40 PM

I've not thought of comparing the Hobbits to the Ring like that. You could also say that Tolkien in a way contrasted the Ring to the Hobbits in a way. There are these Hobbits that don't have much particular power, but with others' help and a strong will, they get a lot done. Then there's the Ring, highly powerful, which doesn't do much other than to hamper the Hobbits by attracting evil.

ColletteTook · 10-22-2002, 07:49 PM

I, in a sense, agree.

They are both similar, but at the same time completely opposite.
What I had meant to express was that they both conceal a different layer of contrast, for both of them you would never expect them to be what they really were, though I hardly believe that all hobbits could do what Frodo,Merry,Pippin and Sam did.

Thulorongil · 12-26-2003, 12:46 PM

That's all similar to what I was thinking about the hobbits. There's also the fact that after Morgoth was defeated, everyone thought that the great evil was mostly disposed of. Then a new power came along out of the rubble of his master's defeat. That and the fact that after Isildur lost the Ring, most people forgot about it and it became a renewed threat seemingly out of nowhere parallel the hobbits being the big heroes who came out of a remote area of the world after no one even knowing they existed. Whew, what a run-on sentence that was! Basically, enemies seeming to come out of nowhere/hobbits seeming to come out of nowhere.

Oh, and the little minor question about Beren & Lúthien:
Lúthien's spirit left her in her sadness after the death of Beren.

Quote:

...and she knelt before Mandos and sang to him. The song of Lúthien before Mandos was the song most fair that ever in words was woven, and the song most sorrowful that ever the world shall hear. Unchanged, imperishable, it is sung still in Valinor beyond the hearing of the world, and listening the Valar are grieved. For Lúthien wove two themes of words, of the sorrow of the Eldar and the grief of Men, of the Two Kindreds that were made by Ilúvatar to dwell in Arda, the Kingdom of Earth amid the innumerable stars. And as she knelt before him her tears fell upon his feet like rain upon the stones; and Mandos was moved to pity, who never before was so moved, nor has been since.

So Mandos gave Lúthien two choices: To be released from Mandos and go to Valinor to dwell forever, but Beren could not come; or to return with Beren to Middle-Earth, but without certitude of life or joy.

Quote:

Then she would become mortal, and subject to a second death, even as he; and ere long she would leave the world for ever, and her beauty become only a memory in song. This doom she chose...

They went off and lived alone and no one heard tidings of them again.

doug*platypus · 12-26-2003, 02:27 PM

I think that the habit of The Professor to repeat ideas was so that they could appear in published form in The Lord of the Rings. If I'm not mistaken, much of the material presented in The Silmarillion was written at an early date, and Tolkien never had more than a faint hope that it would be released.

I think that the ideas, characters and devices used in the tales of the First Age were so powerful that they had to be brought out into the open. Thus the story of Aragorn and Arwen, as well as being a great tale in itself, was a homage to the story of Beren and Lúthien (hence Aragorn being the one to relate part of the tale to us). The story of an immortal being giving up their right to an endless existence, and even the right to wait in the Halls of Mandos if they did die (remember Arwen could have been reunited with her mother in this way), so that they could love a mortal, is a very strong story.

Likewise, the battle between Gandalf and Durin's Bane has not only the same structure as Glorfindel's death, but the same themes. Gandalf gives his life to save the Fellowship (as Glorfindel dies to protect the refugees of Gondolin), and eventually is rewarded for his sacrifice by being allowed to return to Middle-Earth to continue the fight against Sauron.

I'm not sure this is a case of history repeating itself, but themes in Tolkien's writing repeating themselves.

Olorin_TLA · 12-27-2003, 08:35 AM

Possibly, but for the greatest time he did think the Silm. would be published with LotR, so could be a bit of both.

Seriously though, Wilderland is a Hobbit-sized Belriand. Just look at all the Silmarillion ideas present in the Hobbit, albeit in much reduced form (to start with, we've got Negegorth/Elvenking's Halls, etc).

Nilpaurion Felagund · 12-30-2003, 08:07 AM

How about a reverse "Doom of Mandos" in the Third Age?

Think about it! Mandos said treachery will undo victories, which happened spectacularly. While in the Third Age, treacheries helped the victories! The Dead Men of Dunharrow, Saruman, Wormtongue...and many more(I think).

That's all I can think of now...I'll return for more.

->Elenrod

**lindil** · 12-30-2003, 10:48 AM

Quote:

and even the right to wait in the Halls of Mandos if they did die (remember Arwen could have been reunited with her mother in this way)

Celebrian did not die, she was healed physically by Elrond, but wearied of M-E and went West, alive.

I do not think JRRT ever said, 'boy this Silm is never going to get published, I think I will ransack it for material'.

On the contrary, he very deliberately watched and crafted the unfolding interlacments of themes, actions, motives and such.

Aragorn is a perfect example, there was know deliberate, 'let me put an echo of Beren and Luthien in', instad it took quite a while and watchful, patient experimentation on JRRT's part to 'discover' Aragorn and Arwen's story.

A few have been pointed out, I will add some more.

*Rings/Silmarills [both createed by the House of Feanor - both lead to great wars]
*Beren/Luthien and Aragornm/Arwen
*Hidden refuges - Gondolin/Doriath/Nargothrond and
Henneth Annun/Lothlorien/Rivendell/Dunedain's home in the Angle
*Divisions amongst the 'good guys'
* treason - Saruman and the Easterlings in the First Age.
*Edain moving from helpers to major resistors, and Elves from major to helpers.
*Earendil giving hope to both the reaminders in Beleriand and to Sam and Frodo in Mordor [and Sam commenting onit].
*Beren and Frodo each losing bodyparts in regards to the central artifacts of the respective wars.
*Ents mounting suprise attacks in both [although this is one case where the LotR actually influneced the Silm.]
*Eagles! though there roles are very different.

Those are some of the big ones I have thought of, no time for more.

I also must voice agreement with Eldar14, in that the scale on which the action appears is also greatly reduced by the time of the Third Age.

Instead of sending an Army of Maiar and Vanyar [and presumably the remaining male Noldor] in the Third Age they send a fwe disguised Old Men Maiar, only one of whom sticks with the program!

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 11:51 AM December 30, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

Olorin_TLA · 12-30-2003, 11:16 AM

Nice one Nilpaurion...makes me think of Eru's words that even evil's works will in the end make Ea better, though evil doesn't know it.

And here I was thinking Eru was a distanced fool. [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

Legolas · 12-30-2003, 12:09 PM

Gandalf and Orome, both guides who led troubled peoples to freedom, rode impressive white horses. As noted, Gandalf slew and was slain by a balrog just as Glorfindel and Ecthelion were.

Fingolfin and his last heir, Gil-galad, fell in hand-to-hand combat with the Dark Lord of their respective ages.

Proud kings of their realms, both Thingol and Isildur were killed because of the precious treasures they kept and refused to yield to the wishes of others, despite their great power and danger.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 1:11 PM December 30, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]

Finwe · 12-30-2003, 01:55 PM

This one might count as a continuation of the Beren/Luthien and Aragorn/Arwen similarity.

Both Thingol and Elrond had daughters who fell in love with Men, while walking/dancing in a forest.

10-22-2002, 07:05 PM	#1
ColletteTook Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Hobbiton and Tinnuvielda Posts: 369	How history repeats itself An interesting topic I percieved this would make. Has anyone realized that if you look back into the history of Middle Earth, there seems to be a bit of a repetetive line? EXAMPLES: There are many famous tales of love like that of Aragorn and Arwen such as Beren and Luthien Tinuviel, (as well: I should like to know, did Tinuviel give her immortality for him? I couldnt find that anywhere) Also, one major event I noticed: The similarity between Melkor and Sauron. There seems to me to be an uncanny resemblance to the way that Melkor gained power, failed and then returned a second time, more powerful than ever and failed once mroe in a pattern very much like Sauron's. Is there anyone that shares this opinion? Or have I been terribly mistaken and there is no connection of the sort? __________________ A Hobbit of Bywater

10-22-2002, 07:18 PM	#2
Eldar14 Wight Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: the Cottage of Lost Play Posts: 182	What I've always found interesting is how that even though the stories of Melkor and Sauron are very similar, they occured on such vastly different scales. That seems to be one of the other aspects of the repetitives of ME history. How the scale and grandeur of things seems to decrease as time goes on. How the heroes go from high and noble elves to simple hobbits. __________________ "Come away! Let the cowards keep this city!" -- Fëanor to the Noldor

10-22-2002, 07:33 PM	#3
ColletteTook Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Hobbiton and Tinnuvielda Posts: 369	Your right! I think for the hobbits, Tolkien was trying to reflect the size of the ring to the size of the heroes. There was the ring, if you took one glance at it you would never be able to marvel at the fact that it was a powerful and dangerous menace to all things good(I personally would probably think it to be a "lovely souvenier(sp?)" in a way bilbo once had); The same with the hobbits. A loving folk that keep to themselves, you would never think, looking at Samwise Gamgee or Frodo Baggins and see them as the saviours of Middle Earth. __________________ A Hobbit of Bywater

10-22-2002, 07:40 PM	#4
Eldar14 Wight Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: the Cottage of Lost Play Posts: 182	I've not thought of comparing the Hobbits to the Ring like that. You could also say that Tolkien in a way contrasted the Ring to the Hobbits in a way. There are these Hobbits that don't have much particular power, but with others' help and a strong will, they get a lot done. Then there's the Ring, highly powerful, which doesn't do much other than to hamper the Hobbits by attracting evil. __________________ "Come away! Let the cowards keep this city!" -- Fëanor to the Noldor

10-22-2002, 07:49 PM	#5
ColletteTook Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Hobbiton and Tinnuvielda Posts: 369	I, in a sense, agree. They are both similar, but at the same time completely opposite. What I had meant to express was that they both conceal a different layer of contrast, for both of them you would never expect them to be what they really were, though I hardly believe that all hobbits could do what Frodo,Merry,Pippin and Sam did. __________________ A Hobbit of Bywater

12-26-2003, 02:27 PM	#7
doug*platypus Delver in the Deep Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Aotearoa Posts: 960	I think that the habit of The Professor to repeat ideas was so that they could appear in published form in The Lord of the Rings. If I'm not mistaken, much of the material presented in The Silmarillion was written at an early date, and Tolkien never had more than a faint hope that it would be released. I think that the ideas, characters and devices used in the tales of the First Age were so powerful that they had to be brought out into the open. Thus the story of Aragorn and Arwen, as well as being a great tale in itself, was a homage to the story of Beren and Lúthien (hence Aragorn being the one to relate part of the tale to us). The story of an immortal being giving up their right to an endless existence, and even the right to wait in the Halls of Mandos if they did die (remember Arwen could have been reunited with her mother in this way), so that they could love a mortal, is a very strong story. Likewise, the battle between Gandalf and Durin's Bane has not only the same structure as Glorfindel's death, but the same themes. Gandalf gives his life to save the Fellowship (as Glorfindel dies to protect the refugees of Gondolin), and eventually is rewarded for his sacrifice by being allowed to return to Middle-Earth to continue the fight against Sauron. I'm not sure this is a case of history repeating itself, but themes in Tolkien's writing repeating themselves. __________________ But Gwindor answered: 'The doom lies in yourself, not in your name'.

12-27-2003, 08:35 AM	#8
Olorin_TLA Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Gardens of Lórien, Valinor. Posts: 420	Possibly, but for the greatest time he did think the Silm. would be published with LotR, so could be a bit of both. Seriously though, Wilderland is a Hobbit-sized Belriand. Just look at all the Silmarillion ideas present in the Hobbit, albeit in much reduced form (to start with, we've got Negegorth/Elvenking's Halls, etc). __________________ "For I am Olórin! And Olórin means me!" ELENDIL! - Join "Forth Tolkiengas!"

12-30-2003, 08:07 AM	#9
Nilpaurion Felagund Scion of The Faithful Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: The brink, where hope and despair are akin. [The Philippines] Posts: 5,312	How about a reverse "Doom of Mandos" in the Third Age? Think about it! Mandos said treachery will undo victories, which happened spectacularly. While in the Third Age, treacheries helped the victories! The Dead Men of Dunharrow, Saruman, Wormtongue...and many more(I think). That's all I can think of now...I'll return for more. ->Elenrod __________________ フェンリス鴨 (Fenrisu Kamo) The plot, cut, defeated. I intend to copy this sig forever - so far so good...

12-30-2003, 11:16 AM	#11
Olorin_TLA Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Gardens of Lórien, Valinor. Posts: 420	Nice one Nilpaurion...makes me think of Eru's words that even evil's works will in the end make Ea better, though evil doesn't know it. And here I was thinking Eru was a distanced fool. [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] __________________ "For I am Olórin! And Olórin means me!" ELENDIL! - Join "Forth Tolkiengas!"

12-30-2003, 12:09 PM	#12
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	Gandalf and Orome, both guides who led troubled peoples to freedom, rode impressive white horses. As noted, Gandalf slew and was slain by a balrog just as Glorfindel and Ecthelion were. Fingolfin and his last heir, Gil-galad, fell in hand-to-hand combat with the Dark Lord of their respective ages. Proud kings of their realms, both Thingol and Isildur were killed because of the precious treasures they kept and refused to yield to the wishes of others, despite their great power and danger. <font size=1 color=339966>[ 1:11 PM December 30, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ] __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

12-30-2003, 01:55 PM	#13
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	This one might count as a continuation of the Beren/Luthien and Aragorn/Arwen similarity. Both Thingol and Elrond had daughters who fell in love with Men, while walking/dancing in a forest. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.