orc nature

[Evisse the Blue]

1. were the orcs immortal since the elves were?
2. we are not told anything of female orcs - were they like female dwarves, similar in almost every respect with males?
3. by definition, one would argue there are no 'good orcs' but could the process of the 'transformation' of the elves be reversed? What was accomplished through torture couldn't have been unmade through love and a good treatment?

[Mister Underhill]

There's a recently active topic which touches on Orc lifespans and which also contains a link to a very in-depth discussion of Orcish nature. It's here: Bad Guy Lifespans

For speculation on female Orcs, you might try checking out this thread and adding to it: Female Orcs?

[ August 22, 2002: Message edited by: Mister Underhill ]

[Davin]

1. Orc's = Immortal
2. Female Orc's = Yes
3. Good Orc's = No

[Child of the 7th Age]

Is it really as clear cut as this? Your question implies that Orcs were simply corrupt Elves, but I'm not certain this is so. There are writings which seem to indicate all this is still up in the air. The LotR and the Silm imply an Elvish origin for Orcs. However, Myths Transformed (which was written later than LotR) and Book of Lost Tales2 (which was an early writing) suggest other possibilities: orcs "created" by Melkor in imitation of the Children of Illuvatar, orcs as corrupted men, orcs as corrupted lesser Maia (this one is in BoLT2, I know), and some kind of interbreeding even with beasts. Many feel that, in the last years of Tolkien's life, he was moving away from the idea of Orcs as corrupted Elves.

All of these theories seem to have problems. For example, Orcs are around a long time before Men. The Orcs seem so "dumb" so how could they be Maiar? And what about Tolkien's other statement that Sauron and Morgoth couldn't really "make" or create any new forms from scratch (only Eru could do that).

But I also don't think we can automatically assume an Elvish origin, and hence immortality. What if some of the Orcs were actually descended from beasts or men? You might have life stretched out (like the Ringwraiths), but how could mannish Orcs be immortal?

And what if Orcs were corrupt Elves? What happens when they were slain, which they certainly could be. Did the Orc fea travel to the House of Mandos? Tolkien does say somewhere that there is at least the slim possibility of Orcs being redeemable. Actually, he says they are "not unredeemable." So what happens if a slain Orc sees the error of its ways. Would the hroa just remember and recopy the Orc body as normally happens for an Elf? Ugh, what a disaster, to be a repentent corrupted Elf trapped within an Orc body.

Oh, yes, there is at least one reference in the hobbit to "goblin" (i.e. Orc) children. I think it says somewhere that Gollum had just eaten a Goblin child before Bilbo came into his lair. So if there is a child, must there be a female Orc too?

Can anyone shed light on these things who knows more than I do?

sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[Davin]

If Orcs are corrupted Elves, then it is very possible that both male and female Elves were taken and 'turned' into both male and female Orcs.

[piosenniel]

Here also is a discussion on orc nature:

orc

[O'Boile]

What about the Uruk-Hai. As I recall, they are a cross between orcs and men. Would they be imortal?
I must admit that orcs never strike me as being immortal (although I have no facts to back this up). They seem much to dumb. I would think some orc that was alive for thousands of years would have more wisdom.

The fact that Orcs are in fact corrupted Elves seems to be undisputable. In the Silm, Tolkien clearly explains that Elves were "put... in prison and there in prison, and by slow arts of of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved..." It states that "this it may be was the vilest deed of Melkor, and the most hateful to Illuvatar." However, this does not explain the question of immortality, or of the female orc. Since at the awakening of the Eldar there were (obviously) females present, it can be assumed that some of those who dwelt in Cuivenen were ensnared by Melkor, and therefore there is reason to believe there are female orcs. The immortality question is very difficult to work out.

If orcs were immortal, it would explain their general hatred of life, because for them life is painful and evil. However, one would think that after thousands of years, perhaps they would be enlightened. Also, Tolkein describes the orkish language, to paraphrase, as very primitive and crude. If in fact orcs were immortal, then it could be assumed that their language would develop further, and not remain forever a totally barbaric and only partially adequate dialect.

Also, Tolkien uses the general phrase "orcs were multiplying" in many of his texts, usually with the coming of more evil times. However, Elves, who are immortal, did not give birth in the Third Age, which was a cause of their 'fading' in the lands of Middle-earth. How could orcs continue to multiply so?

In conclusion, the lifespan and many other issues concering orcs remains a mystery, a question whose answers cannot be wholly unlocked with the small ammount of resource material provided on the subject.

A correction: the quote that I used should actually be as follows

"...all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved..."

Terribly sorry for the mistake.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Nict322--

I don't agree with your statement that it is undisputed that Orcs were corrupted elves. This is not true, since several other possible origins were suggested by the author.

You have to remember that the Silm was edited and put together and published (some things were even added) by Christopher Tolkien before he even had the chance to go through all his father's papers. Take a look down on the Silmarllion forum below (canon studies, etc.), and you will see two threads that suggest some very different origins for Orcs. I've drawn them up to the head of the line--Orcish Fear and Mithadan: Origin of Orcs.

These folks are doing a revised edition of Silm so they know much more than I do. But it is clear that there is not yet full agreement on this topic as you suggest.

sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[Eol]

Has anyone ever really read the forward in the Silmarillion? I would assume you have as this discussion continues.

Chris explains in the forward that he had a hard time trying to put everything together for flow as many ideas contradicted and created much disharmony. I really do not support the revision of the Sil because Chris did have access to his father's papers and the items that were left out, were left out because they did not make much sense with everything else.

I will end the rant here.

As to the Orcs, well anything that will work, works for me.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Eol--

I am sorry, but I do not agree. And, yes, I have read the prologue of the Silm a number of times. CT published the book in 1977 or 1978. That was years before he looked over the rest of the papers which were later published as HoMe. In fact volume 13 in that series, the index, has just come out. CT was a wonderful editor who did the best he could, but he was not perfect. There is at least one case where he preferred an earlier draft over a later one. He even admitted this was a mistake. And this is not the only disputed point.

And what about the Downs' own Silm project? If the book was in such perfect shape and order, why are people struggling on this site and giving up their time to come up with a revised Silm that would take into account many of the things which later came out in HoMe?

The Orcs may or may not have been corrupted Elves. I am merely saying that this is a disputed point, and we should at least be aware that other interpretations are possible. And the origin of Orcs does have some relevence as to their immortality.

I respectfully and stubbornly disagree,

sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[ August 22, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[Eol]

The reason why I disagree because I am a writer myself. While brainstorming ideas, some I liked and worked with while others I put into archives.

I feel some the work that Tolkien had written and is later used in books may have been the same thing. Most it is speculation and my particular interest.

My understanding of why people stuggle with the Sil because it is a hard read at first. I am sorry if I implied that the Sil is a perfect book as it is not, but the best that could be complied that makes the most sense.

[Feanaro]

That often used quote proves nothing, and the quotes directly before it say that it proves nothing! Here is the entire passage as seen in The Silmarillion

"But of those unhappy ones who were ensnared by Melkor little is known of a certainty. For who of the living has descended into the pits of Utumno, or has explored the darkness of the counsels of Melkor? Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressëa, that all those Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there into prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes."

I have the liberty of boldfacing all particular points of interest. This quote is nothing more than a theory devised by the wise elves of the Tol Eressëa. Whether the elves got it right or not remains to be seen.