orcs & fate

I was just wondering: if elves fate was determined by the music of the Ainur and they where bound to middle-earth, and orcs where probably mutated elves where they also?

[Orald]

You just opened the proverbial "can o' worms"

I could attempt answering your question, but someone would come along and disagree with me. So instead, I will direct you to another thread:
orcish fear

It will at least make you very confused and wish that you never asked the question to begin with.

[Joy]

I will restate what Durelan said. I am not getting into this question because I read that thread he mentioned, and well, I am too cofused to even begin to state what I believe! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

It is a good question though and do read that thread, maybe it will answer your question and point you in the right direction. Have fun and post often, as I see you are new.

ok thanks, i'll try to post often

[Orome]

IMHO i think that pretty much everything is kind of controled by the music of the ainur, but i dont really have anything to back it up with. It is just how it seemed to me when i was reading it.

[HerenIstarion]

It will at least make you very confused and wish that you never asked the question to begin with.

[img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[HerenIstarion]

all the same, to help you out of confusion, I repost here some summury which i still hold to be truth about orks:

1. Orcs have different origins, including beasts, men and elves. Great orcish leaders (Boldog) were orcish hroa inhabited by corrupted Maiar.
2. Those of beast origin need direct control of evil mind (i.e. Morgoth or Sauron) to act with some purpose, otherwise they “stray aimlessly”.
3. The elvish and mannish orcs are capable of independent action in those “good old days”, when Sauron is out of the stage.
4. The elvish and mannish orcs definitely have fear.
5. The elv-orcish fea has a right of elvish one to go to Mandos, repent and rebuild its hroa, yet it is not certain what would be it’s physical appearance – that of an orc, for hroa is rebuild out of fea’s memories of it, or, repenting, it acquires ability to rebuild for it proper purely elvish hroa. On the other side, is has the right to refuse the summons and remain in Hither Lands as houseless ghost or wraith.
6. Mannish fea goes out of the confines of the world
7. Orcs are capable to be interbred with men even in the third age, thus acts Saruman, as well as Sauron, producing new type of “man-orc”
8. Beast-orcs must be considered innocent in a way, for they are just tormented and perverted animals, Kevlar with no free will
9. Elvish and Mannish orcs posses free will, as all the Children of Eru, however suppressed by horror of Dark Lord, therefore they are not irredeemable and must be considered sinners, even those natural born ones, thus being distinguished from beast-orcs. Elvish and Mannish orcs know the Good from the Evil and appreciate the good (see Shagrat and Gorbag converse, were “elvish trick” of leaving companions is evaluated to be bad, and generally ascribed to the other side)
10. All the Orcs hate the Dark Lord for what was done to them, but the hatred is suppressed by horror, and they hate peoples of free and good will still more.
11. Elv-Orcs especially dislike the elves proper, and receive the same feeling from the other side
12. Elv-orcs have usual elven longivety, therefore , for instance, some of themcan recall and recognize items of several thousand years of age (Orcrist and Glamdring recognized by oercs in “The Hobbit&#8221 [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[bombur]

What comes to ”revising” the silmarillion, which issue arises if the nature of orcs is pondered upon, I think theese issues revisions lack Tolkiens authority though some think they have it. Tolkien was the ultimate perfectionist. I have some opinions of a son going digging through ones fathers wastebasket and publishing things this perfectionist did not and perhaps NEVER INTENDED TO. Parts of those are likely to be discarded musings or consepts. Like all people, Tolkien refined his stories and thought things over at later date. He thought of things he did not quite like and things that perhaps could have or should have been differently. Nevertheless, if I have understood things right, his second thoughts of orcish origins are know only from the wastebasket archaeology and publication of semi private letters. I tend to think that the story of Arda includes only what Tolkien published or at most what he finished into stories that would have obviously been published had he had the life of an elf. After all, it is logically inconsistant to give him authority to define all other things EXEPT what to include in the saga.

Also it is valid and interresting philosophical question whether author owns text to change it after it has been published. At what point does a story cease to be ”mine” and become ”ours.” I think Tolkien also expressed some opinion of this and may have actually decided NOT TO publish anything to change the origin of orcs despite changing ones own mind. We perhaps have the wastebasket-archaeology branch of Oxford to give us something to debate over, but not Tolkien. Tolkiens perfectionism to my understanding extended up to the point of trying to create The Perfect Story, even omitting some things the writer personally would like to have been differently, for the sake of the consistency of the story.

So, I start from the basic idea that men awoke to the sunlight, whether or not Tolkien at some latter poit thought about other beginings in some private letters. It also FITS and is consistent with other story, may I say. ”Starlight remained forever in the eyes of eleves”, for example ”as they woke to it.” So men did not wake to it. Eleves see under the starlight because they lived under it. Men do not because they only lived under the sun and the moon. Men were second children of the one to awaken... as dwarves were children of Aule (by the mercy of the one). ETC.

So if theese assumptions hold, orcs cannot have been men.

I doubt that they could have been kelvar, for they are obviously capable of having culture. They have inteligence and so on. In the hobbit, Tolkien tells us what they are like and he says they are most intelligent in all kinds of nasty and efective things up to and including building machines. Orcs might not have souls... but they do have lots of intelligence.

They cannot have been maiar either. It seems to me that maiar have one thing in common. To my understanding, amongst themselves, maiar do not have little maiar. They do not procrate, multiply, have kids. Orcs seem to procreate rather fast (”after this and that war orcs satrted to multiply in the mountains X and Y again...&#8221 [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]. What comes to orcs being something of a same order like ents, dragons, werewolves or... Luthien. That is crossbreeds resulting from powerful spirits taking mortal form and procreating with mortals or things of mortal land.... well they seem to lack the sheer power usually associated with such (noble/hideous) creatures. This is what trolls may have been. Also such crossbreeds seem slow to procreate.

The cannot have been any kind of golems either. Golems do not ponder the possibility of desertion from Mordor and their masters to go on doing some independent banditry. They do not fight their leaders when ****ed off like in cirith ungol. Orcs had independent wills. We do not hear one single orcs words who had NOT shown capasity to defying authority in the books.

In Tolkien and general fantasy, evil can never create.

We are left with possibility of twisted eleves. This one also seems to FIT.

Silmarillion states that Morgoth kept eleven slaves in the mines of Angband. If they returned, they came back broken beings... but not as orcs. I think the best interpretation is the one found in for example the middle earth roleplaying game supplements. No living orc has or had ever been elf. Ofsprings were born in slavery to the eleves of the moriquendi broken in spirit by tortures unspeakable. Ofsprings were born to them. And more generations to them. Inbreeding, dangerous chemichals of the mines causing deformities, mythic reprisals for things like cannibalism forced on them by Morgoth, sheer evil wills twisting and corrupting power, all of this Morgoth used to his pleasure. Generation by generation Morgoths evil twisted them more and more heinously by all the force of a fallen Vala. This continued through all the years between the rise of the stars and the war between Valar and Morgoth. Basically orcs are collection of everything that is not good in elvish genetic stock and then all the faults Bauglir could inflict. They have long since ceased to be eleves, but eleves hate them so much because they see reflection of their own inner inpurities magnified. Orcs hate eleves because eleves fight them. They have no recollection of what their foreparents were, they cannot become that anymore. As far as distanced from what they were meant to be, as Saruman was in the end (and then some), they propably go to nothingness when they die. They may be immortal by their genes as Morgoth was only working with the worst of what was available in the eleven breeding stock to begin with, and there was no raw-materale for ageing. Orcs propably have average lifespan of few violent, sickly and hungry decades though. Strong and cunnig orcish ruler might live forever though becoming more cunnig and powerful feeding on the best manflesh caughts and killing his rivals.

Of cource various mights could have later upgraded the slave race a bit by mixing human genes to the pool. With the rate orcs multiply, but the end of third age all orcs might have a drop of human blood in them. Maybe the bigger ones have most.


Janne Harju

[HerenIstarion]

Hey, bombur, lot of inspiration here [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Yet I deem you err ascribing for the captive Noldor to be orkish forefathers. At the time of the war of the Jewels there already were orks in existance, whatever their origin. Still more Melkor is not a Vala at the time, but Morgoth Bauglir, and is stated to have less powers and abilites as he had of old.

As concerning Maiar unable to have children... well, you yoursels mention Luthien. And who was her mother?

I think you'll find it helpful to look on Mithadan - origin of Orks thread as well, for I know you've already plunged through Orcish Fèar one

As for the especial hate of elves towarsds orks, I made similar argument myself once. It looks psychologically consistent.

Yet as a conclusion, the whole thing (Silm) is presented as mythologies, legends and history, i.e. not "scientifically" exacted truth, but as bunch of differen recorders' opinions, beliefs and so on. WE may speculate that some guys at Valinor knew better, but sindarin records show otherwise.
Average Alexandrian citizen of II AD thought the earth to be flat. Ptolemaios (forgive possible mispelling) knew better. What is average citizen's record was preserved and not latter's one? I mean to point that in this case "wastebasket" material may be taken into account as a different source, miraculously preserved in the same said basket. The gaps even including those are so vast, it even adds to the flavour of "realness" of JRRT's work

[bombur]

”Yet I deem you err ascribing for the captive Noldor to be orkish forefathers.”

I said: ”Morgoth kept eleven slaves in the mines of Angband. If they returned, they came back broken beings.”
And : ”Ofsprings were born in slavery to the eleves of the moriquendi.”

The Noldor slaves were proof that breaking elfs spirit, orc makes not. Morgoth however had ”window of opportunity” for several centuries between the stars lighting up and being chained. Morriquendi = Eleves who never saw the light of trees.

”As concerning Maiar unable to have children”

Maiar can procrate with mortals, but it seems that two Ainur cannot make a little ainur. This is what I said and I believe elsewhere in the message referred to the offspring of mortal and Ainur.


Janne Harju