Query for the learned... - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

flyingtable83 · 07-17-2002, 08:28 PM

In the Silmarillon, during the tale of the Ruin of Doriath, it is said that the Shepherds of the Trees aid the elves in destroying the dwarves of Nogrod which had sacked Menegroth.

After reading this and consulting other sources I know that it refers to the aid of the ents, but was there a pressing reason that the ents helped the dwarves? Was it due to the friendship that the elves had shown teaching them to talk? Or perhaps they just didn't care for the dwarves? I was just wondering, because it wouldn't make since for neutral creatures of ME like the ents to participate in a battle in which they did not have stake (such as happened in LoTR).

MallornLeaf · 07-17-2002, 08:36 PM

<font color-"violet"> I can't give you the "real" answer. But i always assumed that b/c dwarves have axes and axes chop down trees, ents weren't exactly partial to the dwarves. this has just been what I got from it, but I'll leave it to someone else to give the real answer! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

flyingtable83 · 07-17-2002, 08:57 PM

That was one of the ideas that I had perceived, but I wasn't sure if there was anything more to it. The dwarves were the ones who built Menegroth for the Elves, so it is not as if they destroyed something that they hadn't even made.

Thanks.

Aiwendil · 07-18-2002, 09:42 AM

I think the general dislike of Ents for Dwarves that has been mentioned is one reason. Also, Beren seems to have had friendship with the Ents and persuaded them to attack. Here's an idea I recently had: what if there were still some Ents in Dorthonion when Beren was an outlaw? He is said to have befriended the animals that lived there, so why not Ents? This would explain their willingness to aid him years later.

flyingtable83 · 07-19-2002, 06:03 PM

That's a logical assumption (I don't know too much about this though.) Maybe the ents could "detect" the evil doings and/or intentions of the dwarves and were like to stop them? I suppose this is another question without any supporting evidence given to a strict direction. Thanks for the ideas!

Elendur · 07-19-2002, 09:20 PM

I dont think the ents could 'detect' evil. When Treebeard met the hobbits he said "I almost feel that I dislike you both" (Not exact). Even though he wasn't hasty and talked with them before deciding about what kind of people they were, he still had a beginning misconception that I dont think he would have if he could perceive evil in that way.

That is a good theory, Aiwendil. I think the ents would naturally want to be by a lake like Tarn Aeluin and because the area is uninhabited that would make it even more hospitable to the way they like to live.

Its suprising to me, though, that the ents would help in the attack against the dwarves. But at the same time it is understandable. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I dont disagree with their motives for aiding in the attack. They were dwarves, and worse than that they were dwarves that had killed elves. I think they deserved to be killed.

[ July 19, 2002: Message edited by: Elendur ]

07-17-2002, 08:28 PM	#1
flyingtable83 Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 11	Query for the learned... In the Silmarillon, during the tale of the Ruin of Doriath, it is said that the Shepherds of the Trees aid the elves in destroying the dwarves of Nogrod which had sacked Menegroth. After reading this and consulting other sources I know that it refers to the aid of the ents, but was there a pressing reason that the ents helped the dwarves? Was it due to the friendship that the elves had shown teaching them to talk? Or perhaps they just didn't care for the dwarves? I was just wondering, because it wouldn't make since for neutral creatures of ME like the ents to participate in a battle in which they did not have stake (such as happened in LoTR). __________________ "White!" he sneered. "It serves as a beginning. White cloth may be dyed. The white page can be overwritten; and the white light can be broken." - Saruman

07-17-2002, 08:36 PM	#2
MallornLeaf Haunting Spirit Join Date: May 2002 Location: who cares? Posts: 76	<font color-"violet"> I can't give you the "real" answer. But i always assumed that b/c dwarves have axes and axes chop down trees, ents weren't exactly partial to the dwarves. this has just been what I got from it, but I'll leave it to someone else to give the real answer! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ ". . . All we must decide is what to do with the time that is given us." "I pass the test, I will diminish, and go into the West, and remain Galadriel."

07-17-2002, 08:57 PM	#3
flyingtable83 Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 11	That was one of the ideas that I had perceived, but I wasn't sure if there was anything more to it. The dwarves were the ones who built Menegroth for the Elves, so it is not as if they destroyed something that they hadn't even made. Thanks. __________________ "White!" he sneered. "It serves as a beginning. White cloth may be dyed. The white page can be overwritten; and the white light can be broken." - Saruman

07-19-2002, 06:03 PM	#5
flyingtable83 Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 11	That's a logical assumption (I don't know too much about this though.) Maybe the ents could "detect" the evil doings and/or intentions of the dwarves and were like to stop them? I suppose this is another question without any supporting evidence given to a strict direction. Thanks for the ideas! __________________ "White!" he sneered. "It serves as a beginning. White cloth may be dyed. The white page can be overwritten; and the white light can be broken." - Saruman

07-19-2002, 09:20 PM	#6
Elendur Wight Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Arnor Posts: 200	I dont think the ents could 'detect' evil. When Treebeard met the hobbits he said "I almost feel that I dislike you both" (Not exact). Even though he wasn't hasty and talked with them before deciding about what kind of people they were, he still had a beginning misconception that I dont think he would have if he could perceive evil in that way. That is a good theory, Aiwendil. I think the ents would naturally want to be by a lake like Tarn Aeluin and because the area is uninhabited that would make it even more hospitable to the way they like to live. Its suprising to me, though, that the ents would help in the attack against the dwarves. But at the same time it is understandable. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I dont disagree with their motives for aiding in the attack. They were dwarves, and worse than that they were dwarves that had killed elves. I think they deserved to be killed. [ July 19, 2002: Message edited by: Elendur ] __________________ Son of Isildur.

07-18-2002, 09:42 AM	#4
Aiwendil Late Istar Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,224	I think the general dislike of Ents for Dwarves that has been mentioned is one reason. Also, Beren seems to have had friendship with the Ents and persuaded them to attack. Here's an idea I recently had: what if there were still some Ents in Dorthonion when Beren was an outlaw? He is said to have befriended the animals that lived there, so why not Ents? This would explain their willingness to aid him years later.