The Moon - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Losthuniel · 07-17-2002, 06:47 AM

Does anyone else find it odd that the characterization( i invented a word! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]) of the moon is male? In the usual mythologies, the Moon is often portrayed as female (eg: Artemis, Diana) Did Tolkien have a reason for it, or did he just pull it out of thin air?
(trivial question, I know, but it wouldnt leave me alone)

Alkanoonion · 07-17-2002, 06:52 AM

Maybe ME is a reflection of the Earth and therefore what is female in our world would be male there.

Rimbaud · 07-17-2002, 08:12 AM

Quote:

The maiden whom the Valar chose from among the Maiar to guide the vessel of the Sun was named Arien, and he that steered the island of the Moon was Tilion.

Interesting topic. Yes, the majority of World religions have seen the Sun as masculine, think Ra etc and the Moon as feminine (ie Diana). I can think of few that do not conform to this standard. Perhaps someone acquainted with Norse mythology could aid us in discovering the way the wafer crumbles in that part of the world.

Tolkien's reversal of these roles intrigued me. Definitely worthy of discussion. I'll think on the topic and come back when I have more time! In the meantime; any thoughts?

[ July 17, 2002: Message edited by: Stephanos ]

***Sharkû*** · 07-17-2002, 08:31 AM

Of further interest might be the consideration of a total change of that perception in Germanic folklore, where the Moon changed from feminine in old tradition to masculine, and the Sun vice versa.

As for Tolkien's fiction, we have to consider the individual nature of the two: both are only a second best thing (third best if you count the Lamps), and the individual attributes of Sun and Moon are slightly different from those in our myths.

For those attributes are still widely covered by the respective Valar: whereas in, say, Roman myth, the Sun as Sol Invictus was the high invincible God (of War, later for a time, of All), that position was in Tolkien's myth never attributed to the Sun, but to various Valar (Manwë and Tulkas respectively, one might say). Similarly, the reign of the night sky is in Tolkien's ME considered to be Varda's, not that of the Moon.
Of further interest is the fact that Tolkien was of course well aware of the different nature of "his" Sun and Moon:
"A marked difference here between these legends and most others is that the Sun is not a divine symbol, but a second-best thing, and the 'light of the Sun' (the world under the sun) become terms for a fallen world, and a dislocated imperfect vision. [In a footnote:] As far as all this has symbolical or allegorical significance. Light is such a primeval symbol in the nature of the Universe, that it can hardly be analysed. The Light of Valinor (derived from light before any fall) is the light of an undivorced from reason, that sees things both scientifically (or philosophically) and imaginatively (or subcreatively) and says that they are good' – as beautiful. The Light of Sun (or Moon) is derived from the Trees only after they were sullied by Evil." (Letter #131)

Rimbaud · 07-17-2002, 08:51 AM

Good post, Sharkey. You're right, the question should be expanded beyond gender. Why do people think Tolkien treated the Sun and Moon so differently in his mythology as compared to 'traditional' norms?

Is it simply to reinforce his belief in a 'dislocated' version of Earth, a continuation of Melkor's marring of Arda during its creation? Yet even the lights of this 'imperfect vision' are enough to scare Melkor for many years. Are the gender roles important in the way the Sun and the Moon are considered in ME?

Very interesting about Germanic folklore, I never knew that. Do you know why and when this change occurred? I feel research coming upon me...

Gimli Son Of Gloin · 07-17-2002, 09:39 AM

Maybe he made a mistake.

Lothiriel Silmarien · 07-17-2002, 11:19 AM

Well, Tolkien wanted England to have it's own legend, or myth (same thing) and that was one of the reasons he created Arda. He felt that England had no legends of it's own and so he created it. Maybe he wanted to be different and he switched those positions to give England a different myth from all the other ones, which are all very similar.

Birdland · 07-17-2002, 08:52 PM

This is how I interpreted it: (be patient, it gets confusing.)

The Sun and Moon were created from the last fruit and the last flower of the Two Trees. The fruit from the Golden Tree Laurelin was placed in the sky by the Valar Varda, and was guided through the sky by the female Maier Arien.

The last flower of the White Tree Telperion was also placed in the sky by Varda, and was guided through the sky by the male Maier Tilion.

So my thought was that through the ages, the actual Sun and Moon assumed the female and male aspect of the Maier who guided them, at least in the minds of the people of Middle Earth.

***Sharkû*** · 07-17-2002, 11:12 PM

Since the decision of the Ainur on which gender they chose to clothe themselves in was made by their temper in the beginning (see Ainulindalë), we would have to consider both Tilion and Arien at least to a certain degree archetypical for their genders, and hence also the abstract Sun and Moon into which they evolved.

07-17-2002, 06:52 AM	#2
Alkanoonion Spirit in Eriador Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Adelaide Posts: 392	Maybe ME is a reflection of the Earth and therefore what is female in our world would be male there. __________________ In prosperity our friends know us; in adversity we know our friends.

07-17-2002, 08:51 AM	#5
Rimbaud The Perilous Poet Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Heart of the matter Posts: 1,062	Good post, Sharkey. You're right, the question should be expanded beyond gender. Why do people think Tolkien treated the Sun and Moon so differently in his mythology as compared to 'traditional' norms? Is it simply to reinforce his belief in a 'dislocated' version of Earth, a continuation of Melkor's marring of Arda during its creation? Yet even the lights of this 'imperfect vision' are enough to scare Melkor for many years. Are the gender roles important in the way the Sun and the Moon are considered in ME? Very interesting about Germanic folklore, I never knew that. Do you know why and when this change occurred? I feel research coming upon me... __________________ And all the rest is literature

07-17-2002, 09:39 AM	#6
Gimli Son Of Gloin Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: The Halls of Montezuma, and the Shores of Tripoli Posts: 495	Maybe he made a mistake. __________________ The Few, the Proud, the Marines.

07-17-2002, 11:19 AM	#7
Lothiriel Silmarien Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: New York Posts: 829	Well, Tolkien wanted England to have it's own legend, or myth (same thing) and that was one of the reasons he created Arda. He felt that England had no legends of it's own and so he created it. Maybe he wanted to be different and he switched those positions to give England a different myth from all the other ones, which are all very similar. __________________ Si vanwa na Romello vanwa Valimar!~~ ~~Now lost, lost to those from the East is Valimar! My LotR page

07-17-2002, 06:47 AM	#1
Losthuniel Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: The Helcaraxë- aka Canada Posts: 261	The Moon Does anyone else find it odd that the characterization( i invented a word! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]) of the moon is male? In the usual mythologies, the Moon is often portrayed as female (eg: Artemis, Diana) Did Tolkien have a reason for it, or did he just pull it out of thin air? (trivial question, I know, but it wouldnt leave me alone) __________________ ~* Losthuniel "Lord, what fools these mortals be!" Puck, Shakespeare's A Midsummer Night's Dream Abhorsen's House -- Lirael/Sabriel fanboard

07-17-2002, 08:31 AM	#4
*Sharkû* Hungry Ghoul Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 1,719	Of further interest might be the consideration of a total change of that perception in Germanic folklore, where the Moon changed from feminine in old tradition to masculine, and the Sun vice versa. As for Tolkien's fiction, we have to consider the individual nature of the two: both are only a second best thing (third best if you count the Lamps), and the individual attributes of Sun and Moon are slightly different from those in our myths. For those attributes are still widely covered by the respective Valar: whereas in, say, Roman myth, the Sun as Sol Invictus was the high invincible God (of War, later for a time, of All), that position was in Tolkien's myth never attributed to the Sun, but to various Valar (Manwë and Tulkas respectively, one might say). Similarly, the reign of the night sky is in Tolkien's ME considered to be Varda's, not that of the Moon. Of further interest is the fact that Tolkien was of course well aware of the different nature of "his" Sun and Moon: "A marked difference here between these legends and most others is that the Sun is not a divine symbol, but a second-best thing, and the 'light of the Sun' (the world under the sun) become terms for a fallen world, and a dislocated imperfect vision. [In a footnote:] As far as all this has symbolical or allegorical significance. Light is such a primeval symbol in the nature of the Universe, that it can hardly be analysed. The Light of Valinor (derived from light before any fall) is the light of an undivorced from reason, that sees things both scientifically (or philosophically) and imaginatively (or subcreatively) and says that they are good' – as beautiful. The Light of Sun (or Moon) is derived from the Trees only after they were sullied by Evil." (Letter #131)

07-17-2002, 08:52 PM	#8
Birdland Ghastly Neekerbreeker Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto Posts: 1,751	This is how I interpreted it: (be patient, it gets confusing.) The Sun and Moon were created from the last fruit and the last flower of the Two Trees. The fruit from the Golden Tree Laurelin was placed in the sky by the Valar Varda, and was guided through the sky by the female Maier Arien. The last flower of the White Tree Telperion was also placed in the sky by Varda, and was guided through the sky by the male Maier Tilion. So my thought was that through the ages, the actual Sun and Moon assumed the female and male aspect of the Maier who guided them, at least in the minds of the people of Middle Earth.

07-17-2002, 11:12 PM	#9
*Sharkû* Hungry Ghoul Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 1,719	Since the decision of the Ainur on which gender they chose to clothe themselves in was made by their temper in the beginning (see Ainulindalë), we would have to consider both Tilion and Arien at least to a certain degree archetypical for their genders, and hence also the abstract Sun and Moon into which they evolved.