Vanyar > Noldor?

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

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Were the Vanyar greater than the Noldor?
For one, the Vanyar are dearest to Manwe and Varda.
Second, they live right inside Valinor whereas the Noldor dwell mainly in Tirion upon Tuna, on the edge of the land
Third, the High King of all Elves, Ingwe, is of the Vanyar.
Fourth, every Tolkien board I know that uses elves for it's user titles does this:
50 -- Noldo
100 -- Vanya
200 -- Maia
Fifth, it is considered general knowledge that Vanyar are the greatest order of Elves there is.

What do you think? Personally, I beleive that the Noldor were actually greater than the Vanayar; even if the Vanyar had cooler heads.

Gwaihir the Windlord http://www.barrowdowns.comthe barrow-downs</A>
<FONT size="2.5">'Sing now, ye people of the Tower of Anor,
for the Realm of Sauron is ended for ever,
and the Dark Tower is thrown down.'
</p>

[Saulotus]

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Re: Vanyar &gt; Noldor?

Reading the Legend of the Awakening of the Elves; [Appendix to Quendi and Eldar, I'd say the Vanyar (Minyar; named by themselves, and for themselves), wern't very bright, generally non-interactive with other Elvish clans, and somewhat greedy.

They had their just dessert served up cold.

I wonder if there was a cherry on top of the Yavanna Split.

</p>

[Orald]

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Re: Vanyar &gt; Noldor?

Greatest, well what exactly does that mean? True the Vanyar were the fairest and most beautiful of elves, dear to Varda and Manwe. They were also the first group of elves, and the smallest and not even one of them left the great journey. So maybe i could see wisest(as in wisdom not in knowledge).

The Vanyar were not the best craftsmen, that went to the Noldor as did the greatest store of knowledge. Another point is that the Noldor and the Teleri were noted for their strenth in arms as the Vanyar were not. And to account for Manwe and Varda, Aule surely loved the Noldor more, and it seems that Ulmo did also.

The Teleri were best in the lore of nature and the greatest in song. And they were loved by Ulmo and the maia Osse. So depending on what greatness is based on, any of the these elves could be considered better than another.

</p>

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

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Re: Vanyar &gt; Noldor?

Ah, you've pronged me there, Durelin. I mean were the Vanyar the greatest in terms of achievement, might, and wisdom.

For one (or five, rather) the Vanyar did account for at least half of the Host of the Valar in the Great Battle.

Gwaihir the Windlord http://www.barrowdowns.comthe barrow-downs</A>
<FONT size="2.5">'Sing now, ye people of the Tower of Anor,
for the Realm of Sauron is ended for ever,
and the Dark Tower is thrown down.'
</p>

[Orald]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
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Re: Vanyar &gt; Noldor?

I would say that the Vanyar were the greatest in terms of sagacity, being the only ones that stayed in Valinor(really smart). Achievement, I would give that to the Noldor, just about anyway you look at it.
As for might I am not sure, they were all renowned for fighting. There is Earandil, a mostly Noldorin person that killed Ancalagon, and he guards the gate to the void against Morgoth. And Fingolfin gave Morgoth the fight of his life, another of the Noldor. Now i am not sure about the Vanyar because there isn't much about them in what i have read.
I think that makes sense, I am not the best essayist in the world on account of me hating to write.

</p>

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

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Re: Vanyar &gt; Noldor?

'Sagacity', as to the Vanyar staying in Valinor (really smart), I beleive that they only did that because they were not as valoured as the Noldor. The Noldor, after all, cannot be blamed for attempting to defeat Morgoth.

Gwaihir the Windlord http://www.barrowdowns.comthe barrow-downs</A>
<FONT size="2.5">'Sing now, ye people of the Tower of Anor,
for the Realm of Sauron is ended for ever,
and the Dark Tower is thrown down.'
</p>

[red]

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Re: Vanyar &gt; Noldor?

Vanyar! Vanyar! Rah, Rah, Rah!!!! <img src=cool.gif ALT="8)">

-réd

<blockquote><font size=2>

"With that they parted, and it was then the time of sunset; and when after a while they turned and looked back, they saw the King of the West sitting upon his horse with his knights about him; and the falling Sun shone upon them and made all their harness to gleam like red gold, and the white mantle of Aragorn was turned to a flame. Then Aragorn took the green stone and held it up, and there came a green fire from his hand."</p>

-Many Partings, The Return of the King</p></blockquote></p>

[Orald]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
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good point

A few other reasons that they didn't leave, like the Noldor, would be that their king was not killed by him. They had nothing stollen from them. And the Vanyars' minds weren't poisoined bye Morgoth:X. So they never really had a reason to leave.

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[Maédhros]

What do you think? Personally, I beleive that the Noldor were actually greater than the Vanayar; even if the Vanyar had cooler heads.

Definitely the Ñoldor. I couldn't think of a most boring elf than a Vanyar elf. All the great deeds in the Sil were done by Ñoldor, but then again, the Vanyar remained in Valinor. I would stick with the Ñoldor.

[Rimbaud]

The Vanyar were self-evidently the superior people. Not only is this expressly stated by Tolkien, of whom they are the invention, but also derived from my own understanding of the text. It seems that people, not only here, but in the wider world, have a misapprehension of what comprises virtues and downfalls. The Vanyar lived in peace and contentment, close to the apex of learning and understanding that a non-Ainur race could attain. This exalts them above the petty Noldor, with their strife and childish quarrels. Not only that, but the Noldor left for Middle-Earth, clearly distancing themselves from peaceful existence, thus stamping themselves with the hall-mark of an immature race.

The creation of artifacts and weapons, and the conquest of peoples are not achievements, when placed alongside millennia of peaceful and beneficial co-existing, as achieved by the Vanyar. Additionally, as with the Valar, when they are truly needed elsewhere, the Vanyar do not forsake the world to maintain their own equilibrium, but they march forth, to the rescue of those that spurn them.

The goal of a people is peace, beneficial co-existence and the attainment of understanding and benevolence. The Noldor forsook these principles early in their history, and it is arguable whether or not Men ever perceived them.

[Legolas]

The Noldor had to do all that stuff because they messed up big time. Jerks. Could've all been avoided in the first place.

[Keneldil the Polka-dot]

I have to agree with pretty much everything Rimbaud said. However, I would also call the Vanyar the most boring of all the elves. Thank Eru for the (dare I say) more human, much more interesting Noldor who had the bad taste to flip off the Valar and march out to ME where they had those adventures we all love. A book about the Vanyar would read like my 10th grade english teacher sounded: monotonous.

I'd like to add...peace is not the goal of all people, unfortunately Rimbaud. While that would of course be best, there are as many different goals as there are people. I think the Noldor are closer to reality than the Vanyar because they were failable and had some goals that weren't quite so noble.

[ November 08, 2002: Message edited by: Keneldil the Polka-dot ]

I have a problem thinking of the Vanyar as the greatest. Most obedient, yes. Most peaceful, yes. Smartest? Debatable, but possibly.

But greatest? Not in my opinion. The Noldor were the ones who revolutionized elvish written language. They were the ones who perfected swordcraft and metalwork. The Noldor were responsible for the craftmanship of the Silmarils, and it could be said that it was the acts of the Noldor that led to the downfall of Morgoth. They are also directly responsible for the creation of a star (Earendil), and there is no debate that the Noldor were the ancestors for every important character in Lord of the Rings.

Can the Vanyar claim any of this? What can the Vanyar claim? Simply that they were obedient and peaceful. Not bad things, certainly, but also certainly not to the level of those things accomplished by the Noldor.

[Legolas]

...there is no debate that the Noldor were the ancestors for every important character in Lord of the Rings.

Eh...I believe I'd have to debate that point. Galadriel, Glorfindel, Elrond, and Aragorn were the only important characters with Noldorin ancestry. Arwen, too, if you consider her important for whatever reason. There were many other important characters.

Gildor too, if you consider him important. ;-)

You are correct, however, I should not have made such a blanket statement as "every important character."

How about "many" important characters?

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

There could be a debate on the word 'greatness' here. Greatness, to my mind, comjures up not the definitions 'intelligent' or 'percieving', but of greatness based on mighty deeds. The Vanyar didn't perform any deeds as big as the Noldor.

However, it could just mean that they were more in touch with the Valar -- they certainly were -- and therefore, as the valar were great, so were they.

[Legolas]

My feelings echo Gwaihir's.

Gildor? Important? Let's be serious. [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]

[lindil]

Rimbaud nails it, methinks.

The Noldors 'great achievements' were almost all bound up with what JRRT repeatedly calls their 'Fall'.

The Vanyar never 'fell'.

As for the skill in fighting - it was they that composed the bulk of the army that overthrew Morgoth. So they must have learned something re: fighting before leaving Valinor it would seem.

but what is Yoda's saying?

hmm... a great warrior you are looking for... hmmmm... wars to dot make one great!

Vanyar are the height of Elvish civilization. I will agree that reading their history would not be as tantalizing [initially at least]as that of their cousins.

[ November 14, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

[thorondil]

As others have said, it depends on what you mean by greatness. However, I would tend to think that as with all races, it would depend on the individual. Some of the Noldor were probably greater than some of the Vanyar, and some of the Vanyar were probably greater than some of the Noldor.

Each had his or her own part in the Music...and some a greater understanding of or a greater part in the fullfillment of the will of Iluvatar.

As to being more faithful, there were those of the Noldor who more than redeemed themselves.

Lindil, you're right. Wars do not make one great...unless you are fighting Morgoth! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

True, the Vanyar were important, for it was they who overthrew Morgoth. I don't say 'because of them', because if they didn't exist, I'm sure the Valar would have come themselves, or perhaps the Teleri would have filled in; but true, they did that great thing at least.

Lindil, when you say that the Vanyar had the highest civilisation, I must say I disagree. It was the happiest -- it was in Valinor, so of course it was -- but the Noldor's civilisation there and in Middle-Earth wasn't below theirs by any means. In Middle-Earth, the Noldor were concerned primarily with war, and could not afford to build great, light and 'height of civilisation' cities. The only exceptions, just about, were Rivendell and Gondolin, and considering that they were in Middle-Earth I think the Noldor did pretty well.

I do not think either of them were the greater. The Vanyar were the more idealistic race, the cooler in blood and the most joyous; the Noldor were perhaps more wordly and even down to Earth. Who is to say that either of them was better? They all have their great part and place in the scale of things in the Music.

But I will say this. The fate of Arda is very much bound up in Middle-Earth, and the Noldor were the ones who, for the most part, fought and struggled and had a big part in the history of that place.

[Man-of-the-Wold]

Such broad superlatives seem to me a bit boorish.

Come now, the Vanyar are the Wisest and the Fairest, and Ingwe the most loved. Does that make them the Greatest? You decide.

Each of the three kindreds have their gifts, much of what makes the Vanyar so successful is the closeness to the Valar. So, it is at any rate acquired.

Their great gift is poetry, which for Tolkien would have been cardinal.

The Noldor were the bravest, most skilled and so forth. Although these pursuits led to problems, that was not because those pursuits were bad, but because they led to avarice and pridefulness.

The Teleri may seem like a bunch of lesser elves, but they are great singers, sea wrights and so forth. But the likes of Thingol, Cirdan, Beleg, Luthien and others could make them the greatest. Finrod and Galadriel are all half Teleri.

Greatness in the eye of the beholder.

[Saurreg]

I think when Tolkien wrote the Silmarillion, the elven kindred he had in mind and most wanted to explore was the Noldorin. The entire book was essentially about their exploits on Valinor and Middle Earth. Little was mentioned about the Vanyar except they dwelled beneath the two trees and were the favourites of Manwe and Varna.

Without the Noldor, there would be no Silmarils, no Tengwar and of course no rings of power. Without the Noldor, Morgoth would still be running rampant on Middle Earth and the great tales from LOTRs won't even come into play. Hence I feel the Noldorin and the Sindarin were the greatest because they shaped the history of middle earth.

Ultimately each elven kindred had their own strengths and weaknesses. But the legacy of the Noldorin, however brief and tragic will always be remembered as an age of bravery, chivalry and flawed heroism.

[Man-of-the-Wold]

Well put.

Tolkien may have admired the Vanyar, but they were perhaps a little too perfect.

The Noldor were the heroes and makers of things that a Hobbit could appreciate, and the Teleri may be the most fun to be with. My vote still goes with Teleri.

Also, lets not forget that these are individuals first, lets not judge the who is the most fairest of them all. Eol was a great craftsman and a Teleri. And Cirdan as wise as they come.

As I once pointed out using miscegenational mathematics, Elrond and Elros have actually surprisingly little Noldor blood, and almost as much Vanyarin, but overwhelmingly more Telerian, followed by the House of Barahir, for what all that's worth.

[ November 17, 2002: Message edited by: Man-of-the-Wold ]

[Maédhros]

Ultimately each elven kindred had their own strengths and weaknesses. But the legacy of the Noldorin, however brief and tragic will always be remembered as an age of bravery, chivalry and flawed heroism.

Yep, the Ñoldor were in historical and creative substance, the greatest of all of the Elves. They were not perfect, but they were fun to read about. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Orofacion of the Vanyar]

*Ahem* Allow me to defend my people. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Previously stated concerning the Noldorin greatnesss...

They were the ones who perfected swordcraft and metalwork.

I myself do not view the creation of weapons of destruction a factor in judging the greatest of a race. In fact, that should show a weakness if anything, especially in how they are used by said race. How great can this one class of elves be if they slay their own kind, in a paradise of all places?

If drama is involved in determining the greates elven race, then indeed it would be the Noldor. Vainly attempting to overthrow that which they have no chance is in a few words, ambitious yet falty. Fallen Vala and Maia against little elves means the chihuahua wants to play with the big dogs. The Noldor were too proud.

Notice how some of the greatest of all the Noldor are descended from Vanyar. Galadriel, Finrod, and Turgon. But then again, these elves are descendents of all three elvish clans.

Perhaps the greatest elf is that of which is born of all three.

Great topic!

[Keneldil the Polka-dot]

When many years had passed, Ulmo hearkened to the prayers of the Noldor and of Finwë their king. Who grieved at their long sundering from the Teleri, and besought him to bring them to Aman, if they would come.

Doesn’t sound like the Vanyar were too concerned about their abandoned kin. Too busy sitting at the feet of Manwe and wandering in the woods. A strike against their apparent "greatness" in my book.

OK ok, before you go off about the Kinslaying, ship burning, etc.. I'm just trying to keep the pot stirred up here. [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

[ November 17, 2002: Message edited by: Keneldil the Polka-dot ]

[lindil]

Keneldil, it is said in the Silm that Finwe and Elwe were especially close. This accounts for Finwe's especial concern.


Gwaihir posted

Lindil, when you say that the Vanyar had the highest civilisation, I must say I disagree. It was the happiest -- it was in Valinor, so of course it was -- but the Noldor's civilisation there and in Middle-Earth wasn't below theirs by any means. In Middle-Earth, the Noldor were concerned primarily with war, and could not afford to build great, light and 'height of civilisation' cities. The only exceptions, just about, were Rivendell and Gondolin, and considering that they were in Middle-Earth I think the Noldor did pretty well.

Actually , though we are not told, I rather imagine Caras Galadon as we glimpse it in FotR was [designed] built by the Noldorin refugees from Eregion.

And it far surpasses Imladris.

However I was not refering to 'height of civilization cities', but to culture, and dwelling always near the highest of the Valar get's it in my book.

The Vanyar did that which no other culture is reputed ot have done. They found the highest [literally and figurativly in JRRT's world] and clung to it. They were obedient to it, and were not tempted by darkness [either Melkor's lies or the desperation of the Noldor and the poisoned words of Feanor that enthralled even those of noble heart like Finrod.

Granted many do noble and heroic things, but ultimately they are told point blank that they will fail and suffer for it and they go ahead [90% or so] and do it anyway.

I do not see how a fallen race of heroes and kin-slayers, despite finding their tales more interesting than the Vanyars are in any truly important sense [and here is of course the value judgement upon which the whole thread hangs].

Also thorondil - If fighting Morgoth can make one great, then who is 'greater' from it? the Vanyar who won or the Noldor who lost [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

But I will rest my case such as it is - on a fact I mentioned that no one has commented upon, but which I believe central:

The Noldor are repeatedly described in the Letters as 'fallen'. The Vanyar are the antithesis of this - they never fall, they live in peace and wisdom at the feet of the King and Queen of the Valar. They fight when it is truly the right time to do so.
To paraphrase Faramir [and unlike the Noldor as a gross generalization]

"[The Vanyar]love the sword for that which it protects... not for itself".

If I have to live for the duration of the Earth I would much rather do so with a pure conscience.

[ November 18, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

[Keneldil the Polka-dot]

I will admit that it is difficult to argue against the Vanyar, especially when Tolkien refers to the Noldor as "fallen". It is just difficult for me to label them as the greatest because of the things that happened.

How is it "great" to accept something that is simply handed to you? The Valar brought the Quendi to Valinor and in a sense gave it to them. How is it great to have your kin slain by Melkor and DO NOTHING ABOUT IT? Finwe had relatives among the Vanyar that did nothing in response to his death at the hands of Melkor.

[Maédhros]

If fighting Morgoth can make one great, then who is 'greater' from it? the Vanyar who won or the Noldor who lost

The Noldor fought themselves and had no direct help from the Valar, unlike the Vanyar did. And it was not only the Vanyar in the War of Wrath, but also the host of Finarfin (Noldor).

They fight when it is truly the right time to do so.

They fought because the Valar told them so.
I would say that the Vanyar are the best in the art of being boring.
I wonder if Melkor had killed Ingwë, if the Vanyar would have done something about it.

[lindil]

The Vanyar fought not becaues the valar told them too I think [ we are certainly never told they were commanded] but because they trusted the Valar's judgement in the matter. The Noldor of the rebellion did 'something about it' it is true, but it was against all wise counsel and literally doomed.Not boring surely, but pretty stupid.

Sure for many folks the Vanyar seem boring. Especially to those in the fire of youth.

But I ask all who make such assertions this. In the extendde DVD of the FotR, did the departing Noldor appear 'realistic' to you?

And if so do they more truly seem like the fiery Noldor of the Rebellion crossing frozen wastes with an almost suicidal determination, or were they more like the Vanyar meditaiting and singing upon the heights of Taniquetil. Did they seem bored or boring?

Was the glimpse of Frodo's of the singing of 'songs of valinor' as he withdrew with Bilbo anything less than heart-wrenching?

Peace is serious and hard work. It is not the fruit of inertia but a fruit of the battle of with self [ which the Noldorin exiles by and large lost] and also of a marriage of humilty with grace.

[ November 18, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

[Maédhros]

But I ask all who make such assertions this. In the extendde DVD of the FotR, did the departing Noldor appear 'realistic' to you?
And if so do they more truly seem like the fiery Noldor of the Rebellion crossing frozen wastes with an almost suicidal determination, or were they more like the Vanyar meditaiting and singing upon the heights of Taniquetil. Did they seem bored or boring?

Hmmmmm, lindil, what does this have to do with the discussion?
The Ñoldor to me had passion, (although largely misguided with pride and hatred), but regardless of all of their faults, they dared the impossible. I know that they eventually lost, but in all of their adventures, they lived more than the Vanyar ever would.

I don't know whether the Vanyar are considered greater than the others or not, but their king was considered king of all Elves, by the Elves themselves:

...but Ingwë was ever held the High King of all the Elves.

and also:

...Ingwë, the most high lord of all the Elvish race. He entered into Valinor and sits at the feet of the Powers,and all Elves revere his name.

[ November 19, 2002: Message edited by: Vanya ]

[Keneldil the Polka-dot]

lindil, you are making it hard on me to hold my position [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Although I agree with Maedhros, the movie and the book are obviously separate things, I see the point you are trying to illustrate.

When I take a close look at my own argument for the Noldor, my position stems from the fact that they did what I would have done if Finwe were my father. Granted, perhaps I am giving Feanor more credit than he deserves for a noble purpose. The Silmarils had at least as much to do with it as his father did.

Peace is serious and hard work. It is not the fruit of inertia but a fruit of the battle of with self [ which the Noldorin exiles by and large lost] and also of a marriage of humilty with grace.

Well said. *sigh* It is hard for me, being a human, to identify with the Vanyar who are basically an analog of angels. The Noldor made decisions I admire for reasons that are more human, more realistic. In saying the Vanyar are angels and the Noldor are more human, I pretty much destroy my argument that the Noldor are greater. RATS. Someone help me out here. lindil is talking me out of it.

[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

I think Maedhros has a good point. The Noldor lived more than the Vanyar ever did. Isn't the struggle part of that which makes one great? How do you know what is really inside you if it is never challenged? The Vanyar had no adversity to temper their spirits. They had a happy, comfortable environment in which to do whatever it is they did when there was nothing to accomplish.

[ November 19, 2002: Message edited by: Keneldil the Polka-dot ]

[Saurreg]

I agree with what Maedhros posted. The Noldor might have sinned, they might even have been foolish. But to have the courage and determination to leave the only place they ever knew and make way to the unknown(3rd generation elves like Fingon, Finrod and Turgon were all born in Valinor), the heroics to cross the impossible (helcaraxe) and battle a dark god all by themselves and not only without the aid of the patron gods but instead with their curse (the doom of mandos) makes the deeds and exploits of the deep elves far greater than an eternity of servitude of the Vanyars to the valars.

The situation of the Noldors is exactly like that of Napoleon's Imperial Guards Division at Waterloo in 1815. While the Anglo-allied forces might have won, would ordinary people remember the units of British Foot Guards and Line Infantry? Or would they identify better with the French Old Guards heroic last stand at Planceinot against overwhelming odds and Gen Carbronne's legendary reply: "The guards die but they do not surrender!" ?

Viva La Grognards! Viva La Noldor!

[Aule]

I have noticed that a few of you guys say that without the Noldor, Morgoth would still be around. It was my understanding that the Noldor had been utterly defeated and Morgoth had now an army so vast that Angband could no longer hold it. It was only the intervention of the Lords of the West and the armies of the Vanyar and the remaning Noldorin(and Men)army that managed to defeat Melkor.
[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
The Noldor were undoubtably the more interesting race of elves even though they were flawed, but greatest, its hard to say. I can never make up my mind.

[Maédhros]

It was my understanding that the Noldor had been utterly defeated and Morgoth had now an army so vast that Angband could no longer hold it. It was only the intervention of the Lords of the West and the armies of the Vanyar and the remaning Noldorin(and Men)army that managed to defeat Melkor.

Yes, but...
In Morgoth's Ring: Myths Transfromed:

If we consider the situation after the escape of Morgoth and the reestablishment of his abode in Middle-earth, we shall see that the heroic Noldor were the best possible weapon with which to keep Morgoth at bay, virtually besieged, and at any rate fully occupied, on the northern fringe of Middle-earth, without provoking him to a frenzy of nihilistic destruction. And in the meanwhile, Men, or the best elements in Mankind, shaking off his shadow, came into contact with a people who had actually seen and experienced the Blessed Realm.
In their association with the warring Eldar Men were raised to their fullest achievable stature, and by the two marriages the transference to them, or infusion into Mankind, of the noblest Elf-strain was accomplished, in readiness for the still distant, but inevitably approaching, days when the Elves would 'fade'.

The Ñoldor had a part to play in that too. And it was not only the Vanyar but the Host of Finarfin that fought in the war of Wrath.

[lindil]

maedhros posted: Hmmmmm, lindil, what does this have to do with the discussion?

Lindil: Just trying to make my point in yet another and more elliptic way. I am obviously not saying movie impressions of the Nolddor are canon, but that they captured something in that scene which I think is true and revealing about the noldor and that if one sees it with this discussion in mind it may give one an ability to view the whole idea of the Vanyar being 'boring'differently.


Maedhros: The Ñoldor to me had passion, (although largely misguided with pride and hatred), but regardless of all of their faults, they dared the impossible. I know that they eventually lost, but in all of their adventures, they lived more than the Vanyar ever would.


Lindil: I agree with you that the Noldor had [more] passion - but I will give my defuinition of Passion so there is minimal confusion.

Passion is considered by the Church Fathers to be the overthrowing of the spirit [read Fea in this context] by an emotional impulse that will ultimately cause harm to the individual caught up in it.

When passion is present wisdom is not. they are diametrically oppposed.

Now if by passion you mean 'zest for life' or some such. Then I would argue against anyone who says writing something like the Silmarillion takes less 'passion' than sword fighting. Fencing or dueling are more physical, true, but is physicality the yardstick of passion?

I rank the Vanyar as higher than the Noldor because speaking in generalities they are more spiritual - and by spiritual I mean more humble, less prideful, self-willed and patient. To me the spirit is where true love or agape is expressed from in a human [ or hypothetical elf].

Notice that love [ in an spiritual sense] was completly absent from the Noldor's rebellion. The Vanyar in the disaster of Valinor and the 2 Trees responded spiritually, not passionately.

This has nothing to do [ in my mind] with whether one likes poetry and mountains more than handcrafts and hills and plains.

I will argue that the Noldor [left in M-E] by the third age had become extremely Vanyarin. Wiser, less impulsive. No longer creating things [Silmarills or Rings] that would lead to their own destruction. But were living peaceful, vigilant lives and helping their fellow M-E'ers out where possible and as seemed appropriate [Gildor is a perfect example of this imo] but not attempting tasks that were beyond them and or untimely as their 1st and 2nd age brethren.

[ November 19, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

[thorondil]

Lindil:

But I ask all who make such assertions this. In the extendde DVD of the FotR, did the departing Noldor appear 'realistic' to you?

And if so do they more truly seem like the fiery Noldor of the Rebellion crossing frozen wastes with an almost suicidal determination, or were they more like the Vanyar meditaiting and singing upon the heights of Taniquetil. Did they seem bored or boring?

I see your point, Lindil, and while maybe not boring (at least for an instant [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ) it was ethereal and funeral-like. Maybe I'm "fallen" too, but I would not be content to sing in such a way on the heights of Taniquetil. I would be more at home fighting and singing with the Noldor.

The Noldor were greatest in skill and knowledge (and probably in speech and singing too), if not in wisdom, and "in many things they soon surpassed their teachers (the Valar).

[Maédhros]

Now if by passion you mean 'zest for life' or some such. Then I would argue against anyone who says writing something like the Silmarillion takes less 'passion' than sword fighting. Fencing or dueling are more physical, true, but is physicality the yardstick of passion?

By passion I mean that they had more desire to do new things than any other of the two kindreds.
I can't identify with the Vanyar because I just don't get them. Had they reached their zenith in culture and hapiness? What are they going to do for the rest of the life of Arda, just sing at the feet of Manwë in Taniquetil?
It seems to me that the elves tended to reach their zenith and then they froze. Ex: The Teleri built their ships and they themselves said that they were couldn't make their likes ever. I find this horribly sad. Moving to the Vanyar, they found eternal peace and hapiness, but is that it. Is there is a point in elven evolution that they stopped doing things?
I remember that someone told me that, if you look back at your life, and you don't have any regrets in it, then you have not really lived. The Vanyar are just perfect.

[Aiwendil]

I think an implicit problem with the inquiry made thus far in this thread is that there is no working definition of "greatness". Specifically, there appears to be confusion regarding whether we are discussing moral greatness or greatness in terms of skill and power. Morgoth, for example, was "great" - he was the greatest being in Middle-earth. But he was not "great" - he was not supremely virtuous.

I think most of the discussion thus far has addressed the question of moral greatness - were the Noldor culpable for leaving Aman; were the Vanyar perhaps inferior because they did not leave Aman, etc. This has, however, been confounded with the question of greatness in power; the cultural achievements of the Noldor and Vanyar have been taken into account. I think that these two questions must be made distinct if any real insight is to be reached.

That's just my view of things - I've not the time at the moment to take a crack at answering the question or responding to the issues raised.