Bilbo's quote: compliment or insult?

[dragongirlG]

I don't know half of you half as well as I should like, and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.

Would you consider this a compliment or insult?

Long ago I came to the conclusion that this was an insult to some of Bilbo's birthday guests, like the latter addressed to the Sackville-Bagginses. But now, let's anlayze this:

I don't know half of you half as well as I should like

I believe he means that he would like to know some hobbits better, but he can't. This is obviously a compliment, correct? Now, the next part:

and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.

When he says "half as well as you deserve" doesn't that mean he should like the "less than half" better? Now, if he had said "more than you deserve" he would mean that the less than half did not deserve to be liked, but he says "half as well," therefore meaning "I should like you better."

What are your opinions?

[Aldagrim Proudfoot]

I was thinking about this just the other day. The first part is obviously a compliment. "Iwant to know you better." I think the second does mean, "I don't like you, but I should."

[MYyyPreciousSS]

I think its a complimant.
Most people agree, in the first part, he is saying that he'd like to know them better.
I think the second part means that less then half of the hobbits deserve to be liked better by him.
Hope that made since, I understand it but its hard to write it out.

[Kaze]

It's sort of like saying that even though you don't like someone, you're sure they're still great people (even if you don't think about them that way).

[Losthuniel]

and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.

i think it is meant that he likes less than half of them (for the sake of making sense, we'll just say 1/4) not very much at all, and that is more than what they deserve. think of it as the 'all that is gold does not glitter' line

[The Barrow-Wight]

I think the latter section was meant as a bit of self-deprecation on Bilbo's part - a kind of chastisement, scolding himself for not having been as friendly as he might have. Regardless, those who fell into the that category were quick to take it as an insult, so Bilbo was probably right all along in not liking them.

[ July 22, 2002: Message edited by: The Barrow-Wight ]

[Arwen Imladris]

I think he said that just to confuse people, so that when he disapeared they would already be confused. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Ithaeliel]

That quote is the most mind-boggling thing I've heard in the english language since... since I learned my first words!!! I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve... now take out "less than half of" and it's a bit more understandable. "I like you half as well as you deserve" clearly comes out to, "I don't like you as much as I should." See, when you hack a sentence into bits, it's easier to comprehend. I have to agree with BW, I think he was putting himself down for not getting to know his fellow hobbits better. Remember, he also said, "Eleventy-one years is far too short a time to live among such admirable hobbits," preceding the other quote. Therefore, to paraphrase his speech, he would have simply said, "I wish that I could get to know all of you better before I have to leave." I think that the quote we are discussing was off the top of his head, however, and even he might have confused himself for a moment. Perhaps that's why he left straightaway after he said it, with only a word or two between.

Well, I just did a good sentence structure analysis! Oh joy! I am ready for school! I hope that about sums it up.

[ July 22, 2002: Message edited by: Ithaeliel ]

[Lady_Báin]

Well I understood less than half of that. But i understood the quote thusly he dosen't like many of them (less than half) as much as they deserved. So in his opinion less than half the people were worth liking, but he didn't know them as much as they deserved. (I think [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img])

[ElanorGamgee]

It seems to me that both halves come out as a compliment. I just wish I could get the quote straight in my head so I could go around saying it to small groups of people [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Hmm...I just got the most excellent idea if I ever need to give a speech before I go off to college this fall!

[Anunia]

The first part is defenetly a compliment. He regrets that he doesn't know half of them as much as he would like to.

And the second part is a compliment too. He says that he cares about them less than they really deserve. So that means he appreciates them.

I hope this didn't comfused you more then you all seem to be. Anyway, I'm not sure I was right. This is my opinion. The conclusion: THIS WAS A COMPLIMENT.

[ July 26, 2002: Message edited by: Anunia ]

[Elenna]

I think that the first part was obviously a compliment. This we all agree on.

The second part, I think, was his acknowledgement that he didn't get along with many of his acquaintances, admirable hobbits though they may be. It didn't seem to me to be a compliment or an insult.

[Halbereth Diagona]

I think this is incredibly mindboggoling, and proves my view that Bilbo is rather like Mr Macawber in David Copperfield: never using two words where twenty will do.
Crumpets, I'd say the first part was a compliment and the second part, well, could be either, depending on how you look at it.

[Lady_Báin]

well I think that in the end it is neither compliment nor insult, merely a statment.

[ElfEarz]

neither i believe he was just joking

[Gimli Son Of Gloin]

Well I'll tell ya one thing. This thread truly does belong in 'Middle Earth Mayhem'.

[vanwalossien]

I think our insane Proudfoot (you're right about insanity, it makes the world much funnier..) is right, but obviously not all the hobbits liked it.. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[dragongirlG]

Well I'll tell ya one thing. This thread truly does belong in 'Middle Earth Mayhem'.

Gimli, this was where I originally posted it.

Feel free to ignore this.

[Galadel Vinorel]

I think that the first part of what Bilbo said is a compliment, and the second part is an insult. That's what I think, so there. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] Adios, LOTR Fans. [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]

[Lomelinde]

*Rubs her eyes*

Oy. I am so confused. Mayhem indeed. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

*Staggers off to find some aspirin*

[Losthuniel]

also take into consideration how this was delivered in the movie. i would consider the second part insult.

I agree with every one that the first bit is definately a compliment.however, i think the second phrase
"And I like less then half of you, half as well as you deserve."
I think this means thathe likes less then half of them(which isnt very many), and they deserve to be liked better by him.(he likes them(other half) only HALF of what they deserve.)

[Sillabub]

He was drunk and trying to sound clever. Plus he wanted everyone to SHUT UP and listen to his 'all-important' speech (which turned out to be less than important really). That's all I have to say in the matter.

[ElenCala Isil]

I believe that the first part is clearly a compliment. As for the second part, I do think that it is mostly a compliment to most of the hobbits -on the flipside- it could be an insult directed at the S-B's
[img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] It truly is mindboggling!

[Meela]

Compliment.

And very humorous when parodied.

[maikafanawen]

Ah! Great idea for a topic. I agree with Aldagrim Proudfoot. All in all, I belive it's a compliment, but had I been there in the audience I would have been thinking the same thing as they had been: "This was unexpected and rather difficult. There was some scattered clapping, but most of them were tryin to work it out and see if it came to a compliment." Hey...that's what we're doing. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

-Maikafanawen

[Arawethiel]

[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I thought about this for a while too when I made this quote my sig. The first part is definitely a compliment. The second half is what really boggles the mind. It confused me back when I first read it in The Hobbit. I prefer to think that it was a compliment saying that Bilbo didn't like them as much as they deserved. However, I can also see it as being an insult implying that some Hobbits deserve to be liked less than they are. I guess it depends on how you look at it. I like this quote a lot though and I think it would be funny to use on a real group of people in a speech. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

I missed this thread the first time round, so I'm self-indulgently resurrecting it so that I can have my say.

Bilbo is saying a number of things in his convoluted statement, most of them pleasant and some of them less so. I'll take it all point by point to simplify things.

I don't know half of you half as well as I should like

Or as has been pointed out above: "I should like to know half of you twice as well as I do."

and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.

Or "...and less than half of you deserve me to like them twice as much."

What everyone's missed here is that Bilbo divides the hobbits into three: those he doesn't know as well as he would like (about half of those present), those he does know, but doesn't like as much as they deserve (just under half of those present), and those he both knows as much as he would like and likes as much as they deserve (some undisclosed very small number of those present). The last group is implied by exclusion, and is the most ambiguous of the three. Bilbo's showing very unhobbitlike cleverness, because it's up to each individual to decide where they belong, and the last group could include both Frodo and the Sackville-Bagginses.

Bilbo could have said: "Half of you I don't know very well, most of the others I like less than I should and I think of everyone else as they deserve." He could also have said: "I'd like to know half of you twice as well, I should like nearly half of you twice as much as I do, and the rest have no cause to complain." The point is that that's a very ambivalent comment however you dress it up, and he's deliberately obfuscated his meaning to buy himself time while his audience works it out. Probably some of them never did.

Tolkien had to do quite a lot of public speaking in his time, since a professor's job is to profess: in fact he delivered far more lectures than his contract required. This little aside makes me wonder whether he was in the habit of making comments deliberately calculated to go over the heads of his audience, and with his audiences those would have to be very clever comments indeed. He was certainly no stranger to the skullduggery of faculty politics, which is abundantly clear when he shows great councils in session. Bilbo isn't the only character who likes ambiguity either: notice that Gandalf is also good at quiet criticism (witness his smoke rings during his argument with Saruman in Unfinished Tales), and Tolkien genuinely seems to like it when people are rude without being obvious about it. The question of insults is also very evident in Lobelia's attack on Frodo ("you're no Baggins... you're a Brandybuck"), which is meant as an insult, but which Merry claims is a compliment, before reversing that into a playful insult by implying that it couldn't possibly be true. Such is the stuff of social interaction, which is why some people become hermits.

[Lalwendë]

Very wise move to use the 'divide and conquer' technique with this one as the meaning is in the clauses which themselves divide and conquer - the line is very much a linguist's joke. It's how I approach it and people usually understand it after I've explained it this way. Try my simple explanation:

I don't know half of you - Bilbo divides the group into two halves

half as well as I should like - For this half, Bilbo doesn't feel he knows them well enough; this is something he regrets.

and I like less than half of you - Bilbo divides the group into a majority and minority

half as well as you deserve - Bilbo feels he doesn't give the minority group enough credit and they are in fact admirable Hobbits and deserved more of him.

Break it up like a Times crossword clue and there you have it.

[Rikae]

Yes, but it isn't necessarily a compliment.

"I don't know half of you half as well as well as I should like" implies that he would like to know half of them better, but also that he wouldn't like to know the other half better - perhaps he feels he knows them too well already!
Likewise:
"I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve"
on one hand means the "less than half" deserve to be liked better than he likes them, but also means "more than half" don't - he likes them exactly as much, or more, than they deserve!

[Damrod]

My impression was that the meaning of it was up to the hobbits. A "glass half full/empty" thing. The S-B's would take it differently than say, the Proudfoots (feet?). Or, it might be some kind of grammatical English-professor inside joke of Tolkien's.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Rikae

Yes, but it isn't necessarily a compliment.

"I don't know half of you half as well as well as I should like" implies that he would like to know half of them better, but also that he wouldn't like to know the other half better - perhaps he feels he knows them too well already!
Likewise:
"I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve"
on one hand means the "less than half" deserve to be liked better than he likes them, but also means "more than half" don't - he likes them exactly as much, or more, than they deserve!

Well he's actually addressing the people who he directly mentions in the statement, the people who he hasn't taken the time to get to know as well as he would have liked, and the people who he feels he has not esteemed enough. These are parting words, and he is trying to make amends with those who have not been his best friends, but in such a way that he is not delivering mere platitudes which can easily be forgotten. Nobody would forget these words on the other hand!

Originally Posted by Damrod

My impression was that the meaning of it was up to the hobbits. A "glass half full/empty" thing. The S-B's would take it differently than say, the Proudfoots (feet?). Or, it might be some kind of grammatical English-professor inside joke of Tolkien's.

Yes it is a glass half full/empty statement, and understanding it as a compliment would indeed depend upon the listener being well-disposed towards Bilbo, as it would be very easy to take his words as an insult! But logically borken down, they are a compliment.

He's also, in the words he does not say in the second clause, being slyly self-complimentary, saying that in fact he did take pains to see the best in most of the Hobbits he knew. But that would be inference and inferring things is possibly the biggest joke of all in his statement.

[Boromir88]

It was only recently that I had heard Lalwende's breakdown of Bilbo's saying, which hearing it that way I certainly agree. I think its the one that fits best with Bilbo's character.

The thing is, is just like it was to us, it's confusing to them Hobbits to figure out. As we are told, Hobbits like simple things, they don't really like to sit and think about what does this mean. And that's exactly what Bilbo does, he makes them think 'what the heck is he talking about?' 'What is he saying?'

Yes it is a glass half full/empty statement, and understanding it as a compliment would indeed depend upon the listener being well-disposed towards Bilbo, as it would be very easy to take his words as an insult!~Lal

I think more importantly than who was listening, was the tone that Bilbo said it in. Aye, that very difficult thing of tone. It's hard to read tone, unless there are 'emotions' attached to it.

When I saw the movies, the way Bilbo (Ian Holm) says it is rather demeaning, especially the second part of the quote. The first part he says all proudly and happy, the second part the...and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve., he says it demeaningly as if it were an insult. You'll have to watch, ore remember this part of course to have any idea what I'm talking about. But when Mr. Holm says it there's a difference between the two parts, and the way he says it. That second part he goes into a lower voice and says it as if he's scolding some of them (as a teacher would to a student that was acting up)...as if he's saying 'I like you (the minority) more than you deserve to be liked by me!'

With the way it's said in the movies, thats how I just thought of it in the books, because it's hard to read 'tone,' it's hard to read 'expression.' Though when Lal told me this breakdown, and going back to read the part, it makes much more sense that Bilbo was trying to give a compliment...a very complicated compliment that most of the hobbits couldn't figure out whether it was a compliment or not.

[Rikae]

Well, bear in mind that there were hobbits present *cough*Sackville-Bagginses*cough* that Bilbo really didn't like.
I think he wanted to compliment some and insult others ... all of the hobbits would have known what group they fell into, I think (note that the SBs were insulted).

[Lalwendë]

"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve". This was unexpected and rather difficult. There was some scattered clapping, but most of them were trying to work it out and see if it came to a compliment.

Yes, the Sackville-Bagginses will no doubt have been insulted, but then they imagined Bilbo was slighting them at every opportunity (inclduing his mention of the numbers of guests being invited to match the combined ages of himself and Frodo - one gross) following his taking on Frodo as heir when it ought to have been Otho if following the family tree. The statement is designed to confound; note that some of the Hobbits there do understand it and indeed applaud Bilbo.

Boro is spot on that it would be the way it was delivered that would affect how it would be received. Ian Holm does deliver it in a snappy fashion, whereas I can imgine Tolkien himself leaving a slight pause between the clauses, just enough to give the verbal hint that this is another riddle that must be worked out.