The music of the Ainur - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Gayalondiel · 07-12-2002, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Then the voices of the Ainur, like unto harps and lutes...began to fashion the theme of Iluvatar to a great music; and a sound arose of endless interchanging melodies woven in harmony...
...But now Iluvatar sat and hearkened, and for a great while it seemed good to him, for in the music there were no flaws. But as the theme progressed, it came into the heart of Melkor to interweave matters of his own imagining...and straightway dischord arose around him...
...Then Iluvatar arose...and the Ainur percieved that he smiled; and he lifted up his left hand, and a new theme began amid the storm, like and yet unlike to the former theme...
...Then again Iluvatar arose...and behold! a third theme grew amid the confusion, and it was unlike the others.

To cut a long passage to not quite so long, this is a bit of the Sil that I just re-read, and it made me think. does anyone have information/theories/conjecture about what exactly the themes represent, and why there are three? I know the third is to do with the Children of Iluvatar, and that Manwe was chief instrument of the second. Is this something obvious that i've missed?

Aldagrim Proudfoot · 07-12-2002, 01:27 PM

The first theme (this just what I think) was the Valar's first attampt at creating MiddleEarth before the First War. The second theme was when they put up the lamps Illuin and Ormal and tried again. Then when Morgoth destroyed those, the went to Valinor and the third theme started with the Children of Iluvatar. I may be off on some things.

Child of the 7th Age · 07-12-2002, 02:10 PM

Isn't there also a wider idea behind these themes? It was said that, whatever discord Melkor created, Eru would take it and use it as an insturment to create even greater wonders. So the interweaving of the music and the themes starting subsequent to Melkor's attempt to cause discord are an example of how Eru permitted the Evil to exist but then used it to create greater good.

sharon, the 7th age hobbit

Lothiriel Silmarien · 07-14-2002, 09:32 PM

I like this topic. That's a really really good point, but it also could mean that whatever Melkor made, Eru made it greater. Greatness is greater than evilness. (if that makes any sense whatsoever) It's like with animals. Foxes eat rabbits, but tigers can eat foxes. (very bad example but it kinda fits) Or it can be in another way, but the main point is that whatever evil Melkor made, Eru made something even greater, something that could outdo the evil he put in. He was Eru afterall, and Melkor wasn't THAT powerfull..
Basically, most of what I said was what Child of the 7th Age was saying!!

07-12-2002, 01:27 PM	#2
Aldagrim Proudfoot Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hobbiton Posts: 328	The first theme (this just what I think) was the Valar's first attampt at creating MiddleEarth before the First War. The second theme was when they put up the lamps Illuin and Ormal and tried again. Then when Morgoth destroyed those, the went to Valinor and the third theme started with the Children of Iluvatar. I may be off on some things. __________________ I do not suffer from insanity. I enjoy every minute of it!

07-12-2002, 02:10 PM	#3
Child of the 7th Age Spirit of the Lonely Star Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 5,133	Isn't there also a wider idea behind these themes? It was said that, whatever discord Melkor created, Eru would take it and use it as an insturment to create even greater wonders. So the interweaving of the music and the themes starting subsequent to Melkor's attempt to cause discord are an example of how Eru permitted the Evil to exist but then used it to create greater good. sharon, the 7th age hobbit __________________ Multitasking women are never too busy to vote.

07-14-2002, 09:32 PM	#4
Lothiriel Silmarien Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: New York Posts: 829	I like this topic. That's a really really good point, but it also could mean that whatever Melkor made, Eru made it greater. Greatness is greater than evilness. (if that makes any sense whatsoever) It's like with animals. Foxes eat rabbits, but tigers can eat foxes. (very bad example but it kinda fits) Or it can be in another way, but the main point is that whatever evil Melkor made, Eru made something even greater, something that could outdo the evil he put in. He was Eru afterall, and Melkor wasn't THAT powerfull.. Basically, most of what I said was what Child of the 7th Age was saying!! __________________ Si vanwa na Romello vanwa Valimar!~~ ~~Now lost, lost to those from the East is Valimar! My LotR page