The Maia - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 07-11-2002, 01:28 PM

This'll only need a simple answer. Did Eru create the Maia just out of the blue to serve the Valar?

And have I spelt Maia right?

Aldagrim Proudfoot · 07-11-2002, 01:49 PM

Eru creasted the Ainur to help make Arda. Some of the Ainur went to Arda and became the Valar, or Powers of the World. Lesser Ainur also went with the Valar. These were the Maiar. They weren't created to serve the Valar, they just did. Melkor also got some Maiar to join him i.e. Sauro and the Balrogs. That gets me thinking, did any Ainur stay with Eru, or did they all come to Arda?

burrahobbit · 07-11-2002, 01:53 PM

Quote:

That gets me thinking, did any Ainur stay with Eru

Yes.

[ July 11, 2002: Message edited by: burrahobbit ]

Rimbaud · 07-11-2002, 01:58 PM

In the land of ambiguity, burra is king.

Since burra's edit, I have reclaimed the title.

[ July 11, 2002: Message edited by: Stephanos ]

akhtene · 07-11-2002, 04:07 PM

In the Silmarillion it is said

Quote:

Thus it came to pass that of the Ainur some abode still with Iluvatar beyond the confines of the world...

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 07-12-2002, 06:20 AM

The Balrogs were Maiar?

Kuruharan · 07-12-2002, 07:42 AM

Yes.

"For of the Maiar many were drawn to his splendour in the days of his greatness, and remained in that allegiance down into his darkness; and others he corrupted afterwards to his service with lies and treacherous gifts. Dreadful among these spirits were the Valaraukar, the scourges of fire that in Middle-earth were called the Balrogs, demons of terror."
-The Valaquenta

Legolas · 07-12-2002, 08:55 AM

A list of the Maiar Tolkien speaks of in the Silmarillion - Ilmare, Eonwe, Osse, Uinen, Melian, Olorin (Gandalf/Mithrandir), Sauron (Gorthaur the Cruel), Salmar, Arien, Tilion, Curunir, Radagast, "others of the Istari who went into the east of Middle-earth, and do not come into these tales" (being Alatar and Pallando), and "the Valaraukar, the scourges of fire that in Middle-earth were called the Balrogs, demons of terror."

Thuringwethil and Ungoliant are also possibilities, as is, in the opinion of some, Tom Bombadil. That's another story for another day though.

[ July 13, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]

Rimbaud · 07-12-2002, 09:12 AM

Tom Bombadil was a Maia? Hmm, worthy of discussion!

Bwa and indeed hahahaahaha!!!

Kuruharan · 07-12-2002, 09:28 AM

*cough* Dragons! *cough*

[img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Rimbaud · 07-12-2002, 11:00 AM

Aren't Dragons simply winged Balrogs?
[img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

Daniel Telcontar · 07-12-2002, 11:25 AM

Then I guess the Coldrakes are winged balrogs who swallowed to much icecream...

O'Boile · 07-12-2002, 12:47 PM

Dragons are not winged balrogs. They are creations of Morgoth, balrogs are Maiar that were corrupted. Also, many dragons did not have wings (Glaruung -which I'm sure I spelled wrong- did not). It was only in the final battle between Morgoth and the host of the Valar that winged dragons appear. There is some debate as to whether balrogs have wings.

Rimbaud · 07-12-2002, 12:52 PM

Debate? Wings? Balrogs? Has the art of irony finally died? [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

piosenniel · 07-12-2002, 12:59 PM

Stephanos - Here's an interesting thread that just resurfaced on Balrogs and Wings:

Fly?

[ July 12, 2002: Message edited by: piosenniel ]

Aldagrim Proudfoot · 07-12-2002, 01:21 PM

I thought Dragons were lizards that Morgoth bred, like the monsters he created from other animals.

Rimbaud · 07-12-2002, 01:26 PM

Oh for goodness sake, I give up.

Give me a 'sar'! Give me a 'casm'!

Aldagrim Proudfoot · 07-14-2002, 01:25 PM

Were there Maiar other than Balrogs and Sauron who joined Morgoth?

Kuruharan · 07-14-2002, 03:34 PM

*cough* Dragons *cough* [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

obloquy · 07-14-2002, 04:50 PM

Dare you?!

By the way, I'm pretty sure I won that debate. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Kuruharan · 07-14-2002, 06:44 PM

No. Not really. I just gave up trying to argue with you because obviously nobody was making any progress in convincing anyone of anything. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Rimbaud · 07-15-2002, 12:07 PM

Yes, Aldagrim, although in absence of text I shall not say that with finality. From memory, however, I will draw attention to the line I believe found in the Valaquenta, "He gathered to himself many lesser spirits". Tolkien's pantheon comprised several gradings of spirit, from Valar, through Maia and below.

Fingolfin of the Noldor · 07-15-2002, 12:17 PM

The only real divisions(aside from perhaps potency and power but that is just your standard population diversity) of 'spirits', that I am aware of, which Tolkien seems to present are:

ëalar- natural discarnates(ergo the Ainur(eg Maiar, the Valar,)
fëar- natural incarnates(ie 'souls')(ergo Men, Elves, Dwarves, )

[ July 15, 2002: Message edited by: Fingolfin of the Noldor ]

Rimbaud · 07-15-2002, 01:14 PM

Hmm, but of the ëalor, were there not others than the Valar and Maiar? I have this opinion yet my texts are in my homeland some great distance away and thus I cannot find language to support my thought in this.

Legolas · 08-05-2002, 07:23 PM

Yes. For more info, click here.

07-11-2002, 01:28 PM	#1
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	The Maia This'll only need a simple answer. Did Eru create the Maia just out of the blue to serve the Valar? And have I spelt Maia right? __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

07-11-2002, 01:49 PM	#2
Aldagrim Proudfoot Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hobbiton Posts: 328	Eru creasted the Ainur to help make Arda. Some of the Ainur went to Arda and became the Valar, or Powers of the World. Lesser Ainur also went with the Valar. These were the Maiar. They weren't created to serve the Valar, they just did. Melkor also got some Maiar to join him i.e. Sauro and the Balrogs. That gets me thinking, did any Ainur stay with Eru, or did they all come to Arda? __________________ I do not suffer from insanity. I enjoy every minute of it!

07-11-2002, 01:58 PM	#4
Rimbaud The Perilous Poet Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Heart of the matter Posts: 1,062	In the land of ambiguity, burra is king. Since burra's edit, I have reclaimed the title. [ July 11, 2002: Message edited by: Stephanos ] __________________ And all the rest is literature

07-12-2002, 06:20 AM	#6
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	The Balrogs were Maiar? __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

07-12-2002, 07:42 AM	#7
Kuruharan Regal Dwarven Shade Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold Posts: 3,591	Yes. "For of the Maiar many were drawn to his splendour in the days of his greatness, and remained in that allegiance down into his darkness; and others he corrupted afterwards to his service with lies and treacherous gifts. Dreadful among these spirits were the Valaraukar, the scourges of fire that in Middle-earth were called the Balrogs, demons of terror." -The Valaquenta __________________ ...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no...

07-12-2002, 08:55 AM	#8
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	A list of the Maiar Tolkien speaks of in the Silmarillion - Ilmare, Eonwe, Osse, Uinen, Melian, Olorin (Gandalf/Mithrandir), Sauron (Gorthaur the Cruel), Salmar, Arien, Tilion, Curunir, Radagast, "others of the Istari who went into the east of Middle-earth, and do not come into these tales" (being Alatar and Pallando), and "the Valaraukar, the scourges of fire that in Middle-earth were called the Balrogs, demons of terror." Thuringwethil and Ungoliant are also possibilities, as is, in the opinion of some, Tom Bombadil. That's another story for another day though. [ July 13, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ] __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

07-12-2002, 09:12 AM	#9
Rimbaud The Perilous Poet Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Heart of the matter Posts: 1,062	Tom Bombadil was a Maia? Hmm, worthy of discussion! Bwa and indeed hahahaahaha!!! __________________ And all the rest is literature

07-12-2002, 09:28 AM	#10
Kuruharan Regal Dwarven Shade Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold Posts: 3,591	cough Dragons! cough [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ ...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no...

07-12-2002, 11:00 AM	#11
Rimbaud The Perilous Poet Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Heart of the matter Posts: 1,062	Aren't Dragons simply winged Balrogs? [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] __________________ And all the rest is literature

07-12-2002, 11:25 AM	#12
Daniel Telcontar Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2002 Location: Denmark Posts: 713	Then I guess the Coldrakes are winged balrogs who swallowed to much icecream... __________________ Two beer or not two beer, that is the question; by Shakesbeer

07-12-2002, 12:47 PM	#13
O'Boile Wight Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 117	Dragons are not winged balrogs. They are creations of Morgoth, balrogs are Maiar that were corrupted. Also, many dragons did not have wings (Glaruung -which I'm sure I spelled wrong- did not). It was only in the final battle between Morgoth and the host of the Valar that winged dragons appear. There is some debate as to whether balrogs have wings.

07-12-2002, 12:52 PM	#14
Rimbaud The Perilous Poet Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Heart of the matter Posts: 1,062	Debate? Wings? Balrogs? Has the art of irony finally died? [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] __________________ And all the rest is literature

07-12-2002, 12:59 PM	#15
piosenniel Desultory Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Pickin' flowers with Bill the Cat..... Posts: 7,779	Stephanos - Here's an interesting thread that just resurfaced on Balrogs and Wings: Fly? [ July 12, 2002: Message edited by: piosenniel ] __________________ Eldest, that’s what I am . . . I knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside.

07-12-2002, 01:21 PM	#16
Aldagrim Proudfoot Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hobbiton Posts: 328	I thought Dragons were lizards that Morgoth bred, like the monsters he created from other animals. __________________ I do not suffer from insanity. I enjoy every minute of it!

07-12-2002, 01:26 PM	#17
Rimbaud The Perilous Poet Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Heart of the matter Posts: 1,062	Oh for goodness sake, I give up. Give me a 'sar'! Give me a 'casm'! __________________ And all the rest is literature

07-14-2002, 01:25 PM	#18
Aldagrim Proudfoot Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hobbiton Posts: 328	Were there Maiar other than Balrogs and Sauron who joined Morgoth? __________________ I do not suffer from insanity. I enjoy every minute of it!

07-14-2002, 03:34 PM	#19
Kuruharan Regal Dwarven Shade Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold Posts: 3,591	cough Dragons cough [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ ...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no...

07-14-2002, 04:50 PM	#20
obloquy Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: WA Posts: 939	Dare you?! By the way, I'm pretty sure I won that debate. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

07-14-2002, 06:44 PM	#21
Kuruharan Regal Dwarven Shade Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold Posts: 3,591	No. Not really. I just gave up trying to argue with you because obviously nobody was making any progress in convincing anyone of anything. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ ...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no...

07-15-2002, 12:07 PM	#22
Rimbaud The Perilous Poet Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Heart of the matter Posts: 1,062	Yes, Aldagrim, although in absence of text I shall not say that with finality. From memory, however, I will draw attention to the line I believe found in the Valaquenta, "He gathered to himself many lesser spirits". Tolkien's pantheon comprised several gradings of spirit, from Valar, through Maia and below. __________________ And all the rest is literature

07-15-2002, 12:17 PM	#23
Fingolfin of the Noldor Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: NH Posts: 63	The only real divisions(aside from perhaps potency and power but that is just your standard population diversity) of 'spirits', that I am aware of, which Tolkien seems to present are: ëalar- natural discarnates(ergo the Ainur(eg Maiar, the Valar,) fëar- natural incarnates(ie 'souls')(ergo Men, Elves, Dwarves, ) [ July 15, 2002: Message edited by: Fingolfin of the Noldor ] __________________ Sailhand of the Mariners' Guild

07-15-2002, 01:14 PM	#24
Rimbaud The Perilous Poet Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Heart of the matter Posts: 1,062	Hmm, but of the ëalor, were there not others than the Valar and Maiar? I have this opinion yet my texts are in my homeland some great distance away and thus I cannot find language to support my thought in this. __________________ And all the rest is literature

08-05-2002, 07:23 PM	#25
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	Yes. For more info, click here. __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.