saurons fall

[thephantomcredits]

How early on did sauron bind himself to Morgoth. Is there any indication to how early on that event took place? If it was some time I wonder what kind of interaction Sauron had with other Maiar. What are the chances he had any prolonged contact with any of the Istari before he took to Morgoths cause?

[Sharkû]

I don't think it is ever stated or hinted at. He was said to be of Aule's following, which could imply that he was still on his side when they entered Eä. Chances are he got to know Curumo, who was also one of Aule's maiar.

[Finwe]

Sauron was probably seduced to Morgoth's following once the latter became disillusioned with Iluvatar, and started trying to "take over" Arda when it was still in its very young days.

[Sharkû]

Actually, while we do not have a date, we have at least a reason: "It was the apparent will and power of Melkor to effect his designs quickly and masterfully that had first attracted Sauron to him." (MT VII, i). This would be in the physical beginning of Eä, when M. still had the "vast demiurgic lust for power and the achievement of his own will on a great scale." (ibid.)

[Mister Underhill]

Sharkey, is it conclusive that Sauron was a follower of Aulë? I seem to recall that other sources link Sauron to Melkor from the beginning.

[Sharkû]

I would say so. This statement, published in the Silmarillion's Valaquenta, derives from the Later QS, Second Phase (cf. HoME X, 3, II) and is more elaborately given in the Annals of Aman under the year 1500:
<font size="-2">"$17 Now Melkor knew of all that was done; for even then he had secret friends and spies among the Maiar whom he had converted to his cause, and of these the chief, as after became known, was Sauron, a great craftsman of the household of Aule." (HoME X, 2)

The following statement from the Later QS 1 differentiates between initial and later followers of Melkor:<font size="-2">
"But not all of the maiar were faithful to the Valar; for some were from the beginning drawn to the power of Melkor, and others he corrupted later to his service. Sauron was the name by which the chief of these was afterwards called, but he was not alone." (HoME X,3,1,1)

The latter statement seems to imply that Sauron was at least for some time a faithful follower of Aule, before he was drawn to Melkor and became his spy, leading the 'revolution' of some Maiar.

[ October 25, 2003: Message edited by: Sharkû ]

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

Then, Sauron entered in Eä as a Maia of Aulë and after some time he was corrupted by Morgoth.

Do you think that this happened also when he was singing the Music: Sauron begun singing with Aulë and after some time he joined the discords introduced by Morgoth?

Or do you think that Sauron sang all the Music with Aulë?

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

I have been thinking on the question I posted two days ago, and even though I haven't made my mind up yet on this subject, I want to share my thoughts with you. Maybe you all see the answer very clearly, and can show me where the fault in my reasoning is [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

What is sung by the Ainur in the Music is what is going to happen in Eä. And, according to the Ainulindalë it seems that the Music is sung before Eä comes into existence.
Sauron participated in the Music, because he was an Ainu. That means that Sauron was giving shape with his singing to events in Eä, including some that would happen during the First Age and later.

Let's consider then, that Sauron sung with Aulë, as one of his followers, during all the Music. That would imply that Sauron sang against the discords introduced by Melkor, even in events that correspond to the First, Second and Third Age of Arda.
Then Sauron enters in Eä with Aulë, is soon corrupted by Morgoth and follows him. From then on, Sauron contributes actively to make the discords of the Music come into reality.
But then, what about the themes sang by Sauron in the Music as a follower of Aulë, are they not going to become real? and, who sang the events that Sauron is doing in Arda as a servant of Morgoth?

In my opinion, that would be incoherent with what the Music is, and that is why I think it more feasible that Sauron began singing with Aulë and after some time he joined Morgoth's discords.

[Gilbo]

as regards the singing

Some of these thoughts he(Melkor) now wove into his music,and straightway discord rose about him,and many that sang nigh him became despondent,and their thought was disturbed and their music faltered;but some began to attune their music to his rather than to the thought which they had at first.Then the discord of Melkor spread ever wider,and the melodies which had been heard before foundered in a sea of turbulent sound

So it seems that some of the Ainur were drawn to Melkor even before Arda took shape and that the things Sauron does are manifestations of the songs he sang while in harmony with the songs of Melkor. Remember, there was no conception of the song being any more than a SONG. Not until after the song had been ended by Eru were the Ainur shown what it was that they had sung about

Then Iluvatar spoke, and he said: 'Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done.

there is no telling who aligned with Melkor as he sang. Surely Sauron and the Balrogs sang with him; but how do we say with surety that Aule did not harmonize with Melkor. Would not a volcano be a representation of Aule's mountains changed by Melkor's violence. And yet are not Volcanoes a part of the overall scheme?

...in every age there come forth things that are new and have no foretelling, for they do not proceed from the past. And so it was that as this vision of the world was played before them, the Ainur saw that it contained things WHICH THEY HAD NOT THOUGHT.

It seems evident that things may come about, not directly conceived by the Ainur, but as a result of collaboration with Melkor, or as a result of the thoughts of Iluvatar, Himself. [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] So, any deeds accomplished by Sauron could not be incoherent with the song, or incompatible with Iluvatar's plan, even though they seem at odds. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]
(Sauron and the Balrogs...is that a doowop group, or a goth-rock Band/)

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

Gilbo, you are right that it is likely that Volcanos are a combination of Aulë's and Morgoth's songs, just as snow is the combination of Ulmo's waters and Morgoth's extreme cold. But Ulmo didn't sang in harmony with Morgoth, as Eru says in the Ainulindalë, and the same applies to Aulë. As it is said in the Valaquenta:

In the beginning he (Aulë) wrought much in fellowship with Manwë and Ulmo; and the fashioning of all lands was his labour. (...) Melkor was jelous of him, for Aulë was most like himself in thought and in powers; and there was long strife between them, in which Melkor ever marred or undid the works of Aulë, and Aulë grew weary in repairing the tumults and disorders of Melkor (...) But Aulë remained faithful to Eru and submitted all that he did to his will
Valaquenta; the Silmarillion

Therefore, it is clear for me that Aulë never harmonised with Morgoth.

Even though I consider it the 'best' option, the allignment of Sauron with Morgoth during the Music also poses some questions: why did then Sauron enter in Eä as a follower of Aulë? Why didn't he follow Morgoth from the beginning if the discords seduced him from singing Eru's theme?

[Arothir]

I got it! If Eru can make the discords of Melkor good, perhaps Melkor can make another bad thing to counter act it. For example, perhaps Sauron was so skilled in arts because of Aule. He would have probably sang with him. Yet Melkor soon after the entrance into Ea corrupted him. Anything in Sauron's part of the Music was twisted be Melkor. The Ring could have figured into the Music somehow as a type of good tool. But because Sauron was corrupted, the Ring was then made an object of evil. This thread seems the best place to post this, sorry if it's off topic.