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10-24-2003, 11:43 AM | #1 | ||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In a box with a fox
Posts: 1,347
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Did Gandalf die?
I know that there have been many topics about the istari, but I could not find one that talked specifically about this, sorry if it has been done before!
Basically, I want to know whether Gandalf died. Maiar are imortal, but he clad himself in the body of a Men, so does that change anything? I think that his body was killed, but his spirit lived. What do you folks think? Here are some quotations to help us out: Quote:
Quote:
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10-24-2003, 11:56 AM | #2 |
La Belle Dame sans Merci
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Yep. Gandalf kicked the bucket all right... that is if by Gandalf you mean Gandalf-as-mortals-knew-him-in-a-human-form. When Gandalf fought Bill the Balrog, his body was destroyed. "Gandalf" died. But his spirit was beyond death (mind you, this is the same reason Sauron keeps showing up at the most inopportune time), so it just kind of floated around until Gandalf had a new body to use. In short, Gandalf's body was killed, but that was it. He just had to wait for a new one before he could come back.
Fea
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10-24-2003, 12:39 PM | #3 |
Wight
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 166
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Doesn't Gandalf himself say somewhere, that he was sent back? I remember something to that effect. I think he indeed died bodily. His spirit went back to Valinor (because he had come to the untimely end of his mission: his body had died), whence he was sent back to fulfill his mission.
PS The Mria Balrog was not named Billy, but Harry.
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10-24-2003, 12:49 PM | #4 |
La Belle Dame sans Merci
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Whoops- my bad. My apologies Harry, I had mistaken you for a different Flaming Shadowy Demon of Doom.
Fea
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10-24-2003, 01:03 PM | #5 |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 72
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Tolkien makes this point clear in Letter 156, where he writes:
"Gandalf really 'died', and was changed: for that seems to me the only real cheating, to represent anything that can be called 'deat' as making no difference. 'I am G. the White, who has returned from death'. Probably he should have rather have said to Wormtongue: "I have not passed through death (not 'fire and flood') to bandy crooked words with a serving man.'" The two quotes Tolkien gives are from TTT "The Voice of Saruman" and "The King of the Golden Hall." The second quote actually receives the indicated change he would have dssired in the final version of LotR, where it is "I have not passed through fire and death. . ."
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10-24-2003, 05:26 PM | #6 |
Hungry Ghoul
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,719
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Because of the degree of incarnation Gandalf had reached as an Istar, he died like an incarnate and could only be sent back by Eru.
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10-25-2003, 07:51 PM | #7 | ||
Animated Skeleton
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 36
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I don't know about that Sharku. It is true that Gandalf's death did lower his power quite a bit and it would take a long time for him to rebuild on his own.
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10-26-2003, 02:31 AM | #8 |
Essence of Darkness
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Evermore
Posts: 1,420
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There's one more thing. Did Gandalf's 'enhancement' mean that he was transformed by Eru into a more powerful Ainu, i.e. given power or that strength was unveiled that he already posessed -- but that was either forbidden to him or forgotten?
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10-26-2003, 04:31 AM | #9 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: The Encircling Sea, deciding which ship to ruin next...could be yours.
Posts: 274
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Good question Gwaihir.
It is conceivable that Gandalf didn't sacrifice himself but the Valar and or Eru, started the chain of events (with the balrog) that led to Olorin's body dying so they could give instructions and redirect him. With the fall of Saruman (edit oops!), they had lost their most powerful vassal. Olorin was the Istari’s last chance of success and Eru willed their plight to successful, so either they slightly diminished the restraints masking Olorin’s power, or they gave him more power so that he could complete the job. Whatever the case it is evident that whatever Olorin experienced as he wandered “out of thought and time” instilled in him new vigour, hope and above all confidence. Perhaps Eru himself was responsible for the latter; surely a meeting with the all-powerful Iluvatar himself would stoke such confidence. When Gandalf returned, he was at home within himself; he portrayed a newfound purpose and despite doubting himself, he seemed to have more foresight-perhaps he was aware of the War’s outcome? Maybe his creator stirred up hidden strengths that Olorin was unaware that he possessed? Basically, he really didn’t change much, apart from being a bit more self-sure. He was still good old Gandalf. NOTE: Eladar, was your last quote from Letter 156 or was: “Yet this would take a long time and Gandalf was needed right away. Therefore Eru intervened and put his own plan into action.” ? [ October 27, 2003: Message edited by: Osse ]
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10-26-2003, 03:02 PM | #10 | |
Wight
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 166
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Osse, you typed 'Sauron', where you probably meant 'Saruman'.
As to your post: I don't think the Valar could have set the thing with the Balrog in motion. And I don't think Eru did, for He intervened as little as possible on that scale in Middle Earth (in the Númenor intervention, the Valar asked Eru to do that; I don't think they asked Eru to push Harry a bit). Part of Letter 156 was already posted, but I think it's valuable to post the whole part of the Letter concerning Gandalf's death and return. It makes clear he indeed got more power, and that he was sent back by Eru Himself (called the Authority by JRRT). I hope you'll enjoy this rather long quote: Quote:
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10-27-2003, 08:26 AM | #11 |
Mischievous Candle
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Have you checked this up from UT: II Istari (Due to the lack of the english edition of the book this is my own translation): 'But it is said that when finishing his (Olórin aka Gandalf) mission which was the reason he had come, he suffered greatly and he were slayed and he was send back for a while from the death as a white dressed sparkling flame (which was usually covered).'
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Fenris Wolf
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10-27-2003, 01:05 PM | #12 | |
Wight
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 166
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spawn, here's the original version of your quote:
Quote:
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"For I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words Bother me." Dominus Anulorum TolkienGateway - large Tolkien encyclopedia. |
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10-27-2003, 06:41 PM | #13 |
Animated Skeleton
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 36
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I've recently come to the conclusion that sent back meant sent back into Ea. In other words, Gandalf did not stay in Blessed Lands. He later left Ea all together.
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10-27-2003, 08:21 PM | #14 | |
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