Gandalf's words

Since I have read the Lord of The Rings I have been reviewing some of the points in the book in which events are foretold or simply where great quotations can be found. In watching the movie I was particularly interested in the speech that Gandalf gave to Frodo when they were in the mines of Moria. He told Frodo that he should not wish to hand out fate so freely and that Gollum may have a part to play in the fate of the world for good or for evil, or something close to that. However, when I was going through the chapter in which they travel through the mines in the book, I could not find these words, yet I believe I remember them from somewhere, or perhaps I am just overlooking them. Anyway, if anyone could help me out here or just has some really good quotations they'd like to share that'd be sweet. peace.

[Tarthang]

If, I remember correctly (no reference matls. handy), Gandalf's speech about dealing out fate occured either in Rivendel. Or (most likely to my thinking at the moment) when Gandalf tells Frodo of the Rings history way back in the shire.
Peter Jackson seemed to have taken some extensive liberties (IMO) with his interpretation of the books, just to turn them into movies, and this is why you can't find this dialogue in the Moria part of the book.

[Arathiriel]

Since I have read the Lord of The Rings I have been reviewing some of the points in the book in which events are foretold or simply where great quotations can be found. In watching the movie I was particularly interested in the speech that Gandalf gave to Frodo when they were in the mines of Moria. He told Frodo that he should not wish to hand out fate so freely and that Gollum may have a part to play in the fate of the world for good or for evil, or something close to that. However, when I was going through the chapter in which they travel through the mines in the book, I could not find these words, yet I believe I remember them from somewhere, or perhaps I am just overlooking them. Anyway, if anyone could help me out here or just has some really good quotations they'd like to share that'd be sweet. peace

That speech that Gandalf gave to Frodo in the Mines of Moria in the movie came originally in the book in very early chapter called The Shadow of the Past...

I know this because I looked it up after watching the movie and after I did not see it in The Mines of Moria I searched the novel until I found it...

[img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

[ September 13, 2002: Message edited by: Arathiriel ]

[Joy]

You can it find in the Chapter Shadow of the Past. It is almost word for word in the movie.

[elengil]

There are MANY lines in the movie that are misplaced in the time line or spoken by the "wrong" person.

---

i.e.
At the end of Return of the King is when TREEBEARD says "The earth is changing. I feel it in the water. I feel it in the earth. I smell it on the air."

It's not until Return of the King that Aragorn speaks of Kingsfoil (athelas), and the reply is not from Sam!

And of course, Glorfindel is the one who meets Aragorn and the hobbits on the road, and he had been on the road for NINE days, not two, and Frodo rode to the ford of Bruinen alone!

And in the movie Saruman says "One ill turn desrves another" to Gandalf but in the but in the books he says this in Return of the King, and to Frodo!

It's Legolas who speaks to the Elves in Lothlorien, not Aragorn. And it is Legolas who actually says "the dwarf breaths so loudly we could have shot him in the dark" but at least he was quoting Haldir so we can forgive PJ for that. Though I'm miffed that Legolas lost the lines all the same. LOL

Also, Boromir is the one who is supposed to say "there is a fell voice on the air" which ends up going to Legolas...

And it's Gandalf who realizes the password to the gates of Moria, not Frodo.

Pippin throws a *stone* into the well at the guardhouse when they stop, not in Balin's tomb.

In the book, it's Sam who sees the scourging of the Shire in Galadriel's Mirror, not Frodo.

And here's one sure to throw folks for a loop. Boromir's death at the end of the movie is technically the *first* chapter in The Two Towers. Anyone looking for it in Fellowship of the Ring is never gonna find it.

And of course, Aragorn does *not* see Frodo "one last time" before he leaves for Mordor.

And the infamous "lets hunt some orc" line that most people despise is actually "I will follow the orcs." Much more in keeping with his character in my opinion.

---

SO, if you're not sure if something in the movie is actually in the books, you'll have to actually read all three books to find out for sure!!!

[ September 14, 2002: Message edited by: elengil ]

[elengil]

I did like that they actually did manage to get a snippit of Farmer Maggot in the movie, and I dont mean the corn field!!!

The hobbit who is chopping wood and his dog starts to bark when the first black rider comes up and hisses "shire, baggins"

That is actually what happens to Farmer Maggot, and he does indeed say they are all up in Hobbiton.. though he is much more bold in the book with his ordering the black rider off his land.

I did like that they got that in there.

[Galorme]

Excuse me who hates LETS HUNT SOME ORC! That is a perfect line that fits any of the races in middle earth, save maybe hobbits. Elves have the passion and hate, and the pure good that comes from destroying evil. Men love to fight and show their power, and dwarves love vengence It unites them, as you can see from Aragorns happyness, Gimili's cheer and Orlando Bloom displaying one of his 5 odd emotions. Which brings me to another point WHY DOES ORLANDO BLOOD ONLY HAVE ABOUT 5 FACES! If you happen to be watching LoTRs with lots of friends, preferably filled with something intoxicating, every time Orlando Bloom strikes a pose say "Happy Face!" or "Sad Face" or "Determined face!". Its hilarious! Sorry Legolas i still worship you like a god.

Galorme *Delirous with Fever*

[Rose Cotton]

Ya, I like "Let's hunt some orc." It's a very good line to send them off. I just don't see Gimli and Legolas filled with spirit at the words "I will follow the orcs." I know it's what Tolkien said but for a movie you have to do different things to build up excitment.

WHY DOES ORLANDO BLOOD ONLY HAVE ABOUT 5 FACES! If you happen to be watching LoTRs with lots of friends, preferably filled with something intoxicating, every time Orlando Bloom strikes a pose say "Happy Face!" or "Sad Face" or "Determined face!". Its hilarious! Sorry Legolas i still worship you like a god.

LOL! I never noticed that. Though I don't stare at him though the entire movie so It's not suprizing I didn't pick it up. But I'll look for it in the future. LOL!

[elengil]

In another thread, "lets hunt some orc" was voted among the worst lines of Aragorn, and one of the worst in the movie.

I dont like it because I dont like any place that the original wording was needlessly changed.

I dont like that Arwen said she had only been on the road for 2 days when it was 9 (the fact that it wasnt her at all asside)

I dont like the fact that Bilbo says he never went back to the Lonely Mountains when he DID.

I dont like the fact that Aragorn says 'lets hunt some orc' when he's supposed to say 'i will follow the orcs'. Though I suppose since the debate over whether to follow Frodo/Sam or Merry/Pip never really happens it wouldnt have made quite so much of an impact in the movie.

Anyhoo, I've always said it.. the *cartoon* was more true to the book than the movie, and in the cartoon he says I will follow the orcs and it's VERY dramatic the way they do it. It portrays the sense of almost hopelessness they feel no matter which path they choose. I dont believe they ever truly indended to be able to catch them, only to die trying, and if need be, kill as many orcs as they could take with them. But I dont believe they ever truly had hope.
That's one of the things I like about the books is that it shows *real* doubt, fear, hopelessness.... everyone doesnt just *know* that they'll make it. But they keep going despite the fact they dont think they'll ever make it.

[ September 14, 2002: Message edited by: elengil ]

[Galorme]

Tolkein hated any change in wording. But it is not a good enough reason for YOU to hate it. You are inderviduals, dont say that "lets hunt some orc" is bad because its changed from in the book, i think thats petty. Tolkein had a lot of ideas that i dont agree with, formost of which being his greatly ott religous beliefs (i dont want to spark a religion riot here, i get enough of amoungst my mum's catholic friends). I think that, within reason, you can have your own veiws on what happened in the stories, providing you dont insist that your veiws are correct as opposed to the veiws of others.

Just out of interets Burrahobbit do you apreachate tolkein entirly for the complexity of it, or do you enjoy it for the art and beauty contained in it? Its just that judging by your short, to the point answers it seems that you are more interested in pointing out things that writing descriptions and theories. Maybe you have better things to do. Or maybe i am just only remembering your short answers cause they are the ones that stick in the mind. I dunno just interest (you seem to have been here on this forum more than most of the others users, especially in terms of active users)

[elengil]

Now hold on JUST ONE MINUTE.

You cant insist on your way while denying me my right to an opinion all in the same breath!!!

Tolkien wrote the books. If someone wants to do a movie of HIS books, that is a good enough rteason to stay true to the original wording. That IS a valid opinion, whatever you say.

NOT liking the original doesnt give you the right to change it at will. My view of staying true to what was already there isnt "petty". I stated my OPINION that there were some dialogue changes that seemed pointless. You can say that you dont think they were, but you dont have the right to call my opinion "petty"

I NEVER said I hated movie. I said I didnt like that line, but never said I hated the it!

I gave AMPLE reasons for my not liking the word change in that particular point. I felt it did NOT convey the sense of hopelessness that they felt at that moment. I've also stated that because the debate from the book over their course didnt happen in the movie it probably wouldnt have carried the same effect, but that is STILL my views on the situation.

I dont know that I FORCED my view on anyone, or felt that everyone needed to necessarily agree with me. IN fact when I posted I was the one who was attacked for not agreeing apparently with others.

I think you'd better do a little mirror looking before you start accusing me of pettyness.

[Arathiriel]

Pippin throws a *stone* into the well at the guardhouse when they stop, not in Balin's tomb.

Did anyone else notice that just how much they abbreviated the time that the Fellowship spent journeying through the Mines of Moria in the movie versus the time they spent going through it in the book?

I mean read the book and you realize that they spent hours and hours trying to find their way through there but when you watch that segment of the movie, you think that it's only been a few hours since they entered!

I mean in the book after Pippin through that stone down the well, a lot happens between that event and when they're attacked by the orcs and Balrog but in the movie, just right after he knocks the skeleton down the well, the orcs as well as cave troll come a running to attack our heroes...

But still even with the things they changed, I LOVE the movie version of The Fellowship of the Ring and I wish I could watch it again... [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

I don't have a copy! [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

[ September 14, 2002: Message edited by: Arathiriel ]

[elengil]

I have to read Fellowship of the Ring a few more times to make sure the movie doesnt entirely corrupt my memory since I do have the movie and watch it waaayyyy too often. LOL

but yes, the time frame in general in the movie was greatly reduced. The days spent traveling seemed to be reduced to matters of hours, the weeks to only days. Although for Moria *at least* Gandalf does say that the journey through Moria is a 4 day trip. It still *seems* to be only a day at most.

[Childlike Empress]

Not to mention the horrendous, glaring lack of time at the beginning, when 17 years is reduced to a few days or weeks. I refer, of course, to the time between Bilbo's departure and Frodo & company's departure.

[Tirned Tinnu]

*Putting her hands over her head crouching, curling up to guard her delicate parts, Tinnu stops and looks up at the group. Her eyes are darkling, deeply set and lines of care crease her forehead*
Noooo..............!!!
The moment I heard "certain lines" I was disgusted! I shall not repeat them!
The reason for creating these WRETCHED lines is to bring a "modern" "upbeat" language to Tolkien's epic and to grab the attention of *whimper* young *guffaw* people!
Now I beg your leave that I might go to bury my head somewhere so that I don't have to be reminded of it...
*stumbles off still holding her head in pain*

[ September 15, 2002: Message edited by: Tirned Tinnu ]

[bombur]

Eh... Galorme... Do I have to be an individual? I don’t wanna. I wanna be a Dwarf. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

I think ”lets hunt some orc” is bad a) because it is changed from the book and b) because It sounds rather more like 2002 AD action hero saying ”lets kick some *** ” then the 3019 TA future king making a difficult choise.

I deeply resent omitting all of the planning and preparation and plotting by the hobbits in the shire before leaving and replacing it with some silly scene in the corn field. This however can be justified as there is only so much that can be fitted into a minute of film. It bugs me that gandalf tells frodo of things of history in Moria, but it is necessiated by the changes in the begining of the story. Changing Glorfindel into Arwen irritates me, but I suppose they wanted to show the future queen, since one hardly can use appendixes and footnotes in a movie. I understand why the distance between where Glorfindel/Arwen is met and Rivendell is shortened, the visual requirements of the flight from the nazgul sets different frame.

BUT WHY do they make theese ridiculess INSIGNIFIGANT changes like going from ”I will follow the orcs” to ”lets hunt some orc” ?!?!?!?!

(Or trumping up some strange telekinetic Darth Vader vs Luke Skywalker duel between Saruman and Gandalf! Thats the change I detest most.)

Jackson has only one logical reason for this kind of thing. ”Because it is cool and more 21st century” AAAAAARRRRGGGGHHH !!!!!!

I mean, would it not have been cool and 21st century, if Gandalf had been played by Arnold Swarcheneger and falling to the pit in Moria he had had not cried ”Run you fools”, but rather ”I’ll be back!”

When dramatising classic books, a moviemaker has to make some alterations because of different media. However, if the moviemakers desire to pursue their personal visions of coolness, they should not be dramatising classics.


Janne Harju

[Galorme]

Eek, i am sorry Elengil and anyone else i ****ed off, i have been a little ill and delirious, and perhaps even a little drunk when i have written my recent posts. Sorry to Burrahobbit too for being a twat (me not him).

But i still think the key to enjoying the Movie is to keep it seperate from the books where you can. If the guy playing Gandolf wants to believe that Gandalf is (exactly) 7000 years old, despite him existing since between time could even be messured, as well as the 50000 years before the awakening of the elves, then we have to respect this as true in the context of the movie. And in a movie I will follow the orcs would not be as apropriate as "Lets hunt some orc", cause its a movie, and an action movie at that.

Sorry again to everyone i ****ed of you were right i was wrong.

Catholic School Girls Rule.

Edit: If you want proof that i have not been in a proper state of mind then look at my Túrin ramblings in the Silmirion Quotes section.

[ September 15, 2002: Message edited by: Galorme ]

[elengil]

ACK Bombur, dont EVEN get me started on that "Willow-esque" fight scene tween the two wizards.. that's actually the ONE scene i refuse to watch. I dont even detest the orc line as much as that one.

[Selmo]

When I first saw the film, I was shocked to find that Gandalf's words about not dealing out death in judgement lightly were missing from the scene with Frodo in Bagend; I consider them to be very important to the whole story.
I was greatly relieved when Gandalf uses those words in Moria.
Film is film, not the written word, so changes are necessary. I have no problem with that. Despite the changes, I loved the film.
I was slightly annoyed by the inclusion of extra scenes that didn't add to the story, but took up time that could have been used for bits that were cut. For example, the wizards duel and the scene in Moria with all that collapsing masonry, put in just so that Gimli could use the line about dwarf tossing.

I strongly disliked the "lets hunt some orc" line. They're not Tolkien's words; they're not even English English. The phrase is an ugly, ungrammatical modern American expression, quite out of keeping for Aragorn's character.
Cosidering Aragorn's state of mind at the time, angry, fearful, sorrowful and full of self-doubt, it's not surprising that his usually very careful speech patterns should break down, but his words should still have been compatable with the early twentieth century English English that Tolkien would have used.

[ September 18, 2002: Message edited by: Selmo ]

[Frodo Baggins]

HOLD IT PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!

When Legoas is quotin Haldir on the borders of thorien he did NOT say "The dwaerf breathes so loud we could have shot him in the dark." He says "You breathe so loud we caold have shot you in the dark." and he was talking abou SAM!!!! SAM NOT GIMLI!!!!

[Frodo Baggins]

Not to mention..........

Gandalf's sword was supposed to be glowing like Sting, they're both made of the same stuff.

It was Boromir who was throwing rocks in the water at Moria, and I told him to stop.

In the movie, Bilbo says he intended to see Dale, Lake-Town ,and the lonely mountain. I got nres people, in the book he did!!!!!!!!!!

In the book, Gandalf and I were in on Bilbo's disappearing trick, they were in NO way surprised. In fact, I had a hard time not laughing at the other hobbit's antics after he disappeard.

Seventeen years passed between Bilbo leaving and me leaving, not a few weeks.

*sniff* Poor Glorfindel...... [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

I don't like cool and more 20th century... I prefer the original old ways!!!!

That fight between Gandalf and Saruman was kind of cheesy.

From what I hear, TTT is going to be more heinous that FOTR. For example......

Saruman is impaled and dies

Rumours say that Arwen AND Eowyn will be at Helm's Deep

Rumours also say that Haldir gets killed at Helm's deep. (Haldir was nowhere near helm's deep in the book.)

And in the gift giving scene in the extended FOTR...

Merry and Pippin get swords, in the book they get belts. Now I know, swords are more cool, but in the book they oulled those swords out of the Bawwor-Wight's mound. Those swords, especially Merry's were made specifically to fight against the Witch-King, so Merry's sword fulfulled its purpose.

In the movie, Sam gets a stupid coil of rope. Where's his box with the Mallorn seed???!!!!!!! Oooooooooo Theres no scouring of the Shire. It would have been nice to see the only Mallorm west of the mountains....

(crawls away to hide with Tinny)

[elengil]

Haldir was actually talking about *all* of them, it's just Sam who responded by covering his mouth, and trying to breathe very quietly... but the comment wasnt directed at a specific one but all of them in general...

*sigh*.... although, for the movie it worked to get across the tension specifically at a dwarf daring to enter Lothlorien.

[Legolas]

The passage as it appears in the movie is actually broken up in the book between Gandalf telling Frodo the story of Sauron and his rings. There are also things that are paraphrased, like the last quote I've given here.

‘Ah!’ said Gandalf. ‘That is a very long story. The beginnings lie back in the Black Years, which only the lore-masters now remember. If I were to tell you all that tale, we should still be sitting here when Spring had passed into Winter.
‘But last night I told you of Sauron the Great, the Dark Lord. The rumours that you have heard are true: he has indeed arisen again and left his hold in Mirkwood and returned to his ancient fastness in the Dark Tower of Mordor. That name even you hobbits have heard of, like a shadow on the borders of old stories. Always after a defeat and a respite, the Shadow takes another shape and grows again.’
‘I wish it need not have happened in my time,’ said Frodo.
‘So do I,’ said Gandalf, ‘and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given, us. And already, Frodo, our time is beginning to look black. The Enemy is fast becoming very strong. His plans are far from ripe, I think, but they are ripening. We shall be hard put to it. We should be very hard put to it, even if it were not for this dreadful chance.

A bit later...

‘I am sorry,’ said Frodo. ‘But I am frightened; and I do not feel any pity for Gollum.’
‘You have not seen him,’ Gandalf broke in.
‘No, and I don’t want to,’ said Frodo. I can’t understand you. Do you mean to say that you, and the Elves, have let him live on after all those horrible deeds? Now at any rate he is as bad as an Orc, and just an enemy. He deserves death.’
‘Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends. I have not much hope that Gollum can be cured before he dies, but there is a chance of it. And he is bound up with the fate of the Ring. My heart tells me that he has some part to play yet, for good or ill, before the end; and when that comes, the pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of many - yours not least. In any case we did not kill him: he is very old and very wretched. The Wood-elves have him in prison, but they treat him with such kindness as they can find in their wise hearts.’
‘All the same,’ said Frodo, ‘even if Bilbo could not kill Gollum, I wish he had not kept the Ring. I wish he had never found it, and that I had not got it! Why did you let me keep it? Why didn’t you make me throw it away, or, or destroy it?’
‘Let you? Make you?’ said the wizard. ‘Haven’t you been listening to all that I have said? You are not thinking of what you are saying. But as for throwing it away, that was obviously wrong. These Rings have a way of being found. In evil hands it might have done great evil. Worst of all, it might have fallen into the hands of the Enemy. Indeed it certainly would; for this is the One, and he is exerting all his power to find it or draw it to himself.
‘Of course, my dear Frodo, it was dangerous for you; and that has troubled me deeply. But there was so much at stake that I had to take some risk - though even when I was far away there has never been a day when the Shire has not been guarded by watchful eyes. As long as you never used it, I did not think that the Ring would have any lasting effect on you, not for evil, not at any rate for a very long time. And you must remember that nine years ago, when I last saw you, I still knew little for certain.’

‘I do really wish to destroy it!’ cried Frodo. ‘Or, well, to have it destroyed. I am not made for perilous quests. I wish I had never seen the Ring! Why did it come to me? Why was I chosen?’
‘Such questions cannot be answered,’ said Gandalf. ‘You may be sure that it was not for any merit that others do not possess: not for power or wisdom, at any rate. But you have been chosen, and you must therefore use such strength and heart and wits as you have.’

[Evisse the Blue]

To all of you who complain about the movie's lack of inconsistency with the book:

They did have the decency to say 'based upon LOTR' - which technically allows some freedom to the screenwriter. Now, if they'd said: 'Tolkien's LOTR' - thatwould have been sacrilege.

As for Tolkien's claim of not liking changes in wording, remember that cinematography is mainly a visual art.